Biden for President?

[turingtest]

I don't want to speak for Delvo, but I'm not a left-wing accelerationist. A Biden win is preferable to a Trump re-election, for the obvious reasons.

I don't think Trump is some anomaly that will simply go away. Right wing reactionary politics are here to stay. Trump is a manifestation of a festering wound in the political system. Centrists want to paper over these wounds with civility and a return to normalcy, but that won't actually address any of the root causes.

I very much worry that a Biden presidency will do little to address the root causes of our current populist outrage. There is a lot of anger in the air and there needs to be healthy response to it, otherwise the right will just weaponize it as they have repeatedly throughout history.

I very much fear that a Biden presidency would just be a brief interregnum between reactionary right reigns.

It's a valid concern; and I actually have a sneaking sympathy with the idea that letting Trump win so all America can find out just how bad it can get, and maybe force a return to some kind of sanity in four years, would be a long-term solution- call it the Schadenfreude Solution. The problem with it is that it ignores the long-term damage Trump can do during those four more years. I keep harping on this, because I think it's possibly the most important aspect- Trump will almost certainly get to appoint at least one, and more likely more than one, SC Justice during that time. That's a "reactionary right reign" that will far outlast any other damage he can do, with no interregnum. If you scorch the earth now with Trump, hoping to re-sow it with a progressive crop down the line, you still have to deal with the longer-lasting salt he's put there that poisons that progressive crop for the foreseeable future. To put it less dramatically- you may have shown Trump and his politics up for a few years, but there will still be a Court packed with Kavanaughs to deal with.

 

[JoeMorgue]

We are not voting for President in 2020.

We're voting on at least 2 Supreme Court Justices. We're voting on the next Secretary of Labor, of Education. We're voting on dozens of Federal Judges. We've voting on whether or not there will be Social Security when you retire.

Trump is none of those things. If you think Sanders is all of those things you have to at least accept that Biden would be some of those things.

 

[Belz...]

I don't want to speak for Delvo, but I'm not a left-wing accelerationist. A Biden win is preferable to a Trump re-election, for the obvious reasons.

I don't think Trump is some anomaly that will simply go away. Right wing reactionary politics are here to stay. Trump is a manifestation of a festering wound in the political system. Centrists want to paper over these wounds with civility and a return to normalcy, but that won't actually address any of the root causes.

I very much worry that a Biden presidency will do little to address the root causes of our current populist outrage. There is a lot of anger in the air and there needs to be healthy response to it, otherwise the right will just weaponize it as they have repeatedly throughout history.

I very much fear that a Biden presidency would just be a brief interregnum between reactionary right reigns.

Fair enough. You might be right.

 

[Delvo]

I very much fear that a Biden presidency would just be a brief interregnum between reactionary right reigns.

And the next one will probably be at least as evil (or manipulable, either one) as Trump but also competent. Just imagine how much more severe the current situation would have gotten if Trump weren't such an incompetent failure.

And you're claiming that's what they're doing does not make it so.

Well, they've clearly endorsed him, and there's clearly, unmistakably something wrong with his brain, so... yes, it's simply a fact, preposterous or not, that they endorsed somebody who has something wrong with his brain. What exactly is your argument here?

You'd rather believe that all those former (now) 12 candidates are in a massive conspiracy to install a man with dementia in the WH rather than accept they just prefer him to Sanders.

Um... you're presenting the same thing as a choice or preference between itself and itself.

 

[Stacyhs]

I think the difference between BernieBros and BidenBoosters is how they often identify with the problems with their particular candidates.

Biden would not have been my first pick as a candidate, but I think he is best of what's left. However, I do recognize his track record of making embarrassing gaffes is a problem and it could cost the democrats at least some votes. (I suspect the majority of BidenBoosters here feel the same way).

I agree. Biden was not my first choice either...not even my second.

What I notice particularly among so many Sanders supporters is the anger they have. It seems to be based on the belief that 'the establishment' is out to get him and is actively conspiring against him.

Quote:
How dare you do Trump's work for him, passing on all the disinformation of the Russian bots and Putin must love you, and there is nothing wrong with Biden, he has always been this way and how can you even when the point is to get someone anyone elected just shut up shut up already !

On the other hand, when you point out the problems with Bernie, you often get a complete failure to acknowledge the problems by the BernieBros. Point out how his statements on Castro might cost votes (especially in Florida), and you get "Obama said the same thing/its true/etc.", when the proper response would have been "Yes it was a mistake." Point out how its foolish for Sanders to attack "Democratic elites" since he will need their support in the general election, and you get "Well, they had it coming". Point out how Sander's self-labeling as a "socialist" could be problematic, and you get "Well Republicans will attack anyone". Point out how the vast majority of people are against banning private health insurance, and you get some sort of claim about how "If you don't support BernieCare you want to see people die in the streets, besides look how great of a system it is!".

Exactly.

I think the issue is that BernieBros are not just dealing with the gaffes themselves (which might be fair game), but they are trying to suggest that it is due to senility/dementia (which is at least partly speculative). And keep in mind that at least one poster who has been supportive of Sanders (Sideroxylon) appears to have accepted a doctored video of Biden as valid.

That has been my point all along and for which I've received a lot of angry push back. It's not 'partly speculative', it's all speculative. They've failed to provide a single doctor or mental health professional that supports the dementia claim. On the other hand, I've provided two and a speech pathologist who do not support Biden has dementia. They claim Biden's gaffes, etc. are "new". They are not and I've provided articles supporting that.

If Sanders supporters want to go after Biden, fine. I have no problem with that...but do it based on what he's said, his policies, etc. This need to resort to unfounded claims of dementia and conspiracies by 'the establishment' (including 12 former candidates) just reeks of desperation to me.

 

[dudalb]

I got a feeling the accleratioists here are basically revolutionaries who want to burn down the whole US system of government, and put something else in it's place.
THye should remember there was similar attitude in Germany in 1932 among the far left;that a Hitler regime would be short lived, radicalize the masses, and bring on the revolution. In fact they had a slogan 'The sooner we have Hitler, the sooner we have the Revolution".
Did not work out to well, did it?

 

[Elagabalus]

I got a feeling the accleratioists here are basically revolutionaries who want to burn down the whole US system of government, and put something else in it's place.
THye should remember there was similar attitude in Germany in 1932 among the far left;that a Hitler regime would be short lived, radicalize the masses, and bring on the revolution. In fact they had a slogan 'The sooner we have Hitler, the sooner we have the Revolution".
Did not work out to well, did it?

Not really. Some of us just think Bernie has more of a chance than Biden. And last time I checked, Bernie is still in play, at least, until tomorrow.

 

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot
His qualifications are that he is a Geriatric psychiatrist with expertise in dementia. If I provide the sourced quote, will you admit that this is evidence?

You want her to evaluate the evidence before you present it?

That's certainly a novel approach that our resident woo-woos would love to see become standard.

I'm still waiting for sir drinks-a-lot to present this geriatric psychiatrist.

 

[Stacyhs]

In the long run, the party, and the country, needs Biden to lose. The electability myth has already been insanely pervasive without any examples of it actually ever being right; give it one single example when it finally coincidentally actually was right (against the most incompetent, evil, and unpopular excuse for a "President" ever), and it'll get dug in even deeper. And we have no chance of changing the course the country has been on for decades without first getting that myth out of the way.

Since that myth's spell on people hasn't broken yet in the face of its 100% failure rate so far, I don't know how many more failures it will take, but it must be done. Yes, a Biden loss in the general election would mean Trump sticking around a bit longer, but Biden's Presidency wouldn't be much different anyway, and I'm looking over a longer time-frame than that. For the good of the country, the "just give up lefties only the right can ever possibly win" myth needs to die, and Biden winning would only give it more life.

The "It's my way or the highway", "Sanders or nobody" attitude plays right into Trump's hands.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Not really. Some of us just think Bernie has more of a chance than Biden. And last time I checked, Bernie is still in play, at least, until tomorrow.

Curious to see what the 1v1 debate will look like on the 15th. Biden is often his own worst enemy and there will be plenty of time for him to say whatever it is he seems to be doddering on about these days.

 

[Delvo]

The "It's my way or the highway", "Sanders or nobody" attitude plays right into Trump's hands.

Putting Biden up against him instead of somebody who might actually win is playing into his hands.

 

[Elagabalus]

You think it's a joke? Clinton lost because not enough Democrats decided to vote, moreso than Republicans. A boring candidate on the Democratic side might just lull GOP voters into complacency.

Considering how close the last election was, it's no joke. The opposition being inspired to vote or not matters.

Eh ... OK, but I prefer my theory.

No, no, no. Bernie IS like Trump in many ways (or maybe, more like the antithesis of Trump, YMMV). The goal here is to put the mushy middle to sleep like in 2016. And there's a slight chance it could happen! If Bernie gets the nod the debates between Trump and Bernie are going to be a snoozefest. Trump is going to talk about Trump and Bernie's going to talk about the great city on the hill yadda, yadda, yadda - both of them will ignore the question being asked and just go off. This will "encourage" the mushy middle to not want to get involved in politics like the last election only this time the progressives come out in force and Bernie wins.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13003287#post13003287

 

[Stacyhs]

Yes, because any judges that Trump happens to nominate will automatically disappear once the progressives take over.

And all the environmental harm that is occurring will magically vanish once the progressive take over.

What a completely foolish statement. Completely baffling. The fact that a poster can't see the difference between a moderate democrat like Biden and Trump shows just how totally out of touch some BernieBros can be.

Biden would not nominate hard-right judges, which would give the republicans even more ability to corrupt the political system in the future (and putting abortion rights at risk).

Biden would not engage in any more environmental and/or financial deregulation.

Biden would reverse various racist policies (such as the border wall, and locking up children in cages)

Sure, you're not going to get "BernieCare", but you're going to end up with a president who is at least going to improve the lives of millions of Americans.

Bernie or Busters need to re-evaluate their life choices.

And did it ever occur to you that one of the reasons Biden is as popular as he is is not just "electibilty", but because they actually like his candidacy? The whole "BernieCare" is not as popular as you seem to think, and Sanders has never made much inroads with the African American community.

Thank you for that excellent post! I never knew much about the BernieBros but I've gotten quite the education here.

 

[Suddenly]

The most likely case of a Sanders victory is not some sort of universal harmony, but even more reactionary attitudes from the republican side.

I don't know who is expecting harmony from a Sanders victory. His appeal is that he's willing to fight. Biden is the one that seems to think the GOP will ever learn to play nice again.

There is a slightly better chance that under Sanders the true wingnuts will actually start shooting people. Of course, they were probably going to do that with Clinton so maybe not.

Other than that, the GOP ethic of outrage, bad faith, and total retaliation isn't going to be any different. The core of their support are people that think Democrats kill babies and people that think Democrats are going to herd them into camps. To them the difference is just why they are filled with rage. Sanders is a socialist, Biden is part of the Clinton cabal that will sell their children.

 

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs
And you're claiming that's what they're doing does not make it so.

Well, they've clearly endorsed him, and there's clearly, unmistakably something wrong with his brain, so... yes, it's simply a fact, preposterous or not, that they endorsed somebody who has something wrong with his brain. What exactly is your argument here?

So you and several others keep saying. So let me repeat yet again: no evidence has been presented that there is something wrong with Biden's brain. Trump and his minions saying so doesn't make it true. Bernie supporters saying it's so doesn't make it true. The failure to present any evidence other than saying "look at this video!" says it all. Present some actual evidence and you will have a leg to stand on. Until then, it's nothing more than unfounded speculation based on the need/want to believe it's so in order to support your own candidate.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs
You'd rather believe that all those former (now) 12 candidates are in a massive conspiracy to install a man with dementia in the WH rather than accept they just prefer him to Sanders.

Um... you're presenting the same thing as a choice or preference between itself and itself.

Try reading what I wrote again and take off the Sanders bias blinders.

 

[dudalb]

The "It's my way or the highway", "Sanders or nobody" attitude plays right into Trump's hands.

I think some of the Berniebros want Trump to win if Sanders does not get the nomination. The whole "FOUr more years of Trump will radicalize the masses and lead to the revolution" theory. That has never worked too well in the real word, but appeals to those for whom the revolution is always around the corner.

 

[dudalb]

I don't know who is expecting harmony from a Sanders victory. His appeal is that he's willing to fight. Biden is the one that seems to think the GOP will ever learn to play nice again.

There is a slightly better chance that under Sanders the true wingnuts will actually start shooting people. Of course, they were probably going to do that with Clinton so maybe not.

Other than that, the GOP ethic of outrage, bad faith, and total retaliation isn't going to be any different. The core of their support are people that think Democrats kill babies and people that think Democrats are going to herd them into camps. To them the difference is just why they are filled with rage. Sanders is a socialist, Biden is part of the Clinton cabal that will sell their children.

And I see a similar attitude and ethic building on the political left.

 

[Delvo]

What I wish were around the corner is not a revolution but more people realizing & admitting that there's nothing revolutionary about Sanders at all. He wants what most Americans want. Most other politicians, including Democrats who call themselves "centrist/moderate", are the actual extremists, to the right. And yes, that includes Sanders himself making the same mistake.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Just, you know, a thought here - have you all ever considered the possibility that 1) deriding, dismissing, and/or demonizing Sanders supporters as "BernieBros" and then 2) getting behind a candidate that progressives can't stand is actually an UTTERLY ******* STUPID idea if you hope to build a coalition that can beat Trump?

 

[theprestige]

What I wish were around the corner is not a revolution but more people realizing & admitting that there's nothing revolutionary about Sanders at all. He wants what most Americans want. Most other politicians, including Democrats who call themselves "centrist/moderate", are the actual extremists, to the right. And yes, that includes Sanders himself making the same mistake.

I think it's actually the other way around. Most Americans are actually pretty conservative. Even the progressives.