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Biblical Plagiarism

By sheer luck (or perhaps an act of God :P) I came across a documentary that my father gave me that spoke extensively on biblical plagiarisms. It came across very professional, and not all conspiracy-theory-ish like Zeitgeist. I was wondering if anyone could comment on its veracity? Someone has uploaded it on Youtube, around P5 is when they start talking biblical plagiarisms.

The Naked Truth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJqivq4BzcU
 
OhMan said:
By sheer luck (or perhaps an act of God :P) I came across a documentary that my father gave me that spoke extensively on biblical plagiarisms. It came across very professional, and not all conspiracy-theory-ish like Zeitgeist. I was wondering if anyone could comment on its veracity? Someone has uploaded it on Youtube, around P5 is when they start talking biblical plagiarisms.

The Naked Truth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJqivq4BzcU
Click to expand...

Having made it through five of the 12 parts of The Naked Truth, I can say that, thus far, it sounds just like Zeitgeist, and would seem to be based on Gerald Massey's version of Egyptian myth as interpreted by Acharya S - replete with the claim of the 16 crucified saviors, and such minutiae as "Anup the Baptizer," apparently an invention of Massey's. As with the material in Zeitgeist, this is harmful because fundamentalist Christian apologists, such those at the Tektonics website, can easily knock holes in the argument.

Of course, there are plenty of parallels between Jesus and such dying and rising gods as Osiris and Dionysus. However, much more of the narratives of his life, particularly his miracles in the Synoptic Gospels, are based on those of Moses, Elijah and Elisha. The miracles of turning water into wine and raising Lazarus from the dead, both in the Gospel of John have pagan origins, respectively from Dionysus and Osiris.

There is also a certain sloppiness of scholarship in The Naked Truth, which, while it isn't fatal, is irritating. For example, in the first episode one ofthe commentators says the Crusades were about the Holy Grail. This is nonsense. The Byzantine emperor asked for troops to retake Asia Minor from the Seljuk Turks, the Pope saw this as an opportunity to reclaim the Holy Land from the Muslims. The Grail wasn't involved.

Speaking of Akhenaton, one of the commentators says that he instituted the worship of one god - Amen-Ra. In fact he instituted worship of Aton, the sun disk, specifically to undermine the power of the priests of Amen-Ra by replacing that sun god with his own.
 
I was about to look at the remaining episodes of The Naked Truth when I noticed that Jordan Maxwell, its chief commentator, had another video out called The Matrix of Power. Out of curiosity, I started watching it. I didn't have to get too far into it, because Maxwell began with the, "We all know . . . " routine, that the Republicans and Democrats are both controlled by the same people, that governments have their own secret agendas, etc. and the the banker, who really run the whole show, have their own secret fraternal order . . . the FREEMASONS!!!!

I'm glad I came across this video. Now I don't have to waste my time watching the rest of The Naked Truth.
 
TimCallahan said:
I was about to look at the episodes of The Naked Truth when I noticed Jordan Maxwell, its chief commentator
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That was enough for me, carrying on from that point would be like watching a Graham Hancock film for the truth about the ice age
;)
 
More on Jordan Maxwell: He also believes ancient astronauts created Adam and Eve. So, according to Maxwell, ancient astronauts bred us (Homo sapiens) from more primitive humans. Presumably, then, the descendants of these aliens are still here managing human society through the Freemasons and using such organizations as the Catholic Church and the Federal reserve Board as instruments of control.

So, OhMan, please exercise caution and dig a bit into the sources of information regarding the origins of biblical texts and religious beliefs. Yes, the dying and rising god motif is very old and important. However, astrology is not at the base of all religion, as Maxwell and Acharya S assert.
 
Aaaarrggh damn it this is so annoying. I just want some credible sources so when I make my argument I don't shoot myself in the foot!
 
OhMan, critical thinking isn't about finding evidence to support a conclusion, but finding conclusions after examining the evidence. Probably the most important part of the scientific method is to try and destroy your hypotheses. If they can survive that, they are more likely to be true.
 
OhMan said:
Aaaarrggh damn it this is so annoying. I just want some credible sources so when I make my argument I don't shoot myself in the foot!
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and you thought you'd find them on youtube ?
wow
:D
 
OhMan said:
Aaaarrggh damn it this is so annoying. I just want some credible sources so when I make my argument I don't shoot myself in the foot!
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There are a lot o credible sources out there. I suggested Randel Helms' books, Gospel Fictions and Who Wrote the Gospels. At the risk of blowing my own horn, I might suggest my own Secret Origins of the Bible. Look back over the thread for other material. One that hasn't so far beeen mentioned that also comes to mind is Dennis MacDonald's The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark.

Remember that, by the time Jesus came on the scene, the Hebrew Scriptures had been written, plus material that was very influential, yet not, ultimately, included in the canon. What I'm referring to are the books of the Pseudepigrapha (Gr. "falsely inscribed"). In the main, these were apocalyptic works actually written between 200 and 100 BCE, but ascribed to ancient patriarchs. Among these were the Book of Enoch, the Testament of Abraham, the Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs and the Book of Jubilees. The gospels and other writings of the New Testament draw heavily on the miracle stories of Moses, Elijah and Elisha, make repeated claims of fulfilling Old Testament prophecies and were shaped by messianic myth from the Book of Daniel and the Pseudepigrapha.

In addition, there certainly were pagan influences, not only via the Homeric epics, but from dying and rising gods, such as Osiris (not Horus) and Dionysus. Randel Helms points out that, though the story in the Synoptic Gospels of Jesus raising the daughter of Jairus from the dead is probably based on similar miracles done by Elijah and Elisha, the raising of Lazarus in the Gospel of John is likely based on the myth of Osiris. John's miracle of Jesus turning water into wine is taken straight from an annual ritual at a temple of Dionysus in Elis, Greece.

The Nativity stories illustrate the variety of sources for the New Testament. The story in Matthew of the star, the magi, the flight to Egypt and the slaughter of the innocents is messianic myth based on politics (Parthian magi hailing Jesus as king) references to the Hebrew Scriptures (the gifts of the magi were the same the queen of Sheba would have given Solomon, the slaughter of the innocents is taken from the early chapters of Exodus) and peudepigraphic material (the star). Also, the threatened infancy of the hero/ god is a common mythic motif. Such heroes and gods include Horus, Heracles, Apollo and Artemis, Perseus and Moses.

Luke's nativity is based primarily on pagan material: the annunciation and virgin birth ( i.e. impregnation by a god), the infant raised by or found among animals, an arduous, hidden birth in humble circumstances (the trek to Bethlehem, no room at the inn, the birth in the stable, which was likely a shallow cave), adoration of the child by divine beings and mortals alike (angels and shepherds). In fact, Luke's nativity is likely based on that of Hatshepsut in particular and Egyptian pharaohs in general, with a slating of the myth of the birth of Horus to Isis: The queen is informed by a god that Amon-Ra will impregnate her, giving her a divine child to rule Egypt. Like Isis (also like Danae pregnant with Perseus), Mary gives birth in a disguised, hidden place, where one would not expect to find a king or god being born. Actually, Isis giving birth to Horus in a papyrus swamp was already transmitted to the Hebrew scriptures in the myth of Moses found among the reeds. The birth of Moses is also based on that of Sargon of Akkad.
 
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A Christian Sceptic said:
TimCallahan specifically said peudepigraphic material. I'd like to know which one (or ones) he was referring to.

Do you know?
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I expect hes referring to the "Prophecies of Balaam", which is the only qualified pseudographical text I know which mentions it.

A star was also mentioned by Josephus but much later than the birth of Jesus, but earlier than the writing of the account which tells of the star in the bible itself.

The chinese also recorded a star around 5bce, but as far as I know they didn't mention Bethlehem
:D
 
I should elaborate a bit. The star actually appears both in a pseudepigraphic text and in Numbers, in Balaam's prophecy. The pseudepigraphic source is the Testament of Levi from the Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs (Testeament of Levi 18:3):

The n the Lord shall raise up a new priest,
And to him all the words of the Lord shall be revealed;
And he shall execute rightful judgment upon the earth for a multitude of days.
And his star shall rise in heaven as of a king.

In Numbers 24:17 Balaam says, "A star shall come forth out of Jacob and a scepter shall rise out of Israel."
 
Hokulele said:
OhMan, critical thinking isn't about finding evidence to support a conclusion, but finding conclusions after examining the evidence. Probably the most important part of the scientific method is to try and destroy your hypotheses. If they can survive that, they are more likely to be true.
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Yeh I know, but I made the mistake of saying that I could demonstrate biblical plagiarisms first, only to find out now that my sources are not reliable. However, people still say that the bible does plagiarize, I just have to find new sources. If they did not say this, then I would have had no choice but to retract my argument.

Thanks for the research Tim.
 
OhMan said:
Yeh I know, but I made the mistake of saying that I could demonstrate biblical plagiarisms first, only to find out now that my sources are not reliable. However, people still say that the bible does plagiarize, I just have to find new sources. If they did not say this, then I would have had no choice but to retract my argument.
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To be fair, pretty much any work reuses concepts and themes, if not outright direct quotes, from earlier works. As Tim mentioned, you would be much better off showing how the New Testament authors, particularly whoever wrote Matthew, deliberately incorporated direct quotes from the Old Testament to make their hero appear to fufill prophecies. My personal favorite is the Rodeo Jesus (riding two donkeys at once). :)
 
Hokulele said:
To be fair, pretty much any work reuses concepts and themes, if not outright direct quotes, from earlier works. As Tim mentioned, you would be much better off showing how the New Testament authors, particularly whoever wrote Matthew, deliberately incorporated direct quotes from the Old Testament to make their hero appear to fufill prophecies. My personal favorite is the Rodeo Jesus (riding two donkeys at once). :)
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Yeah, that's a fun one. It involves someone writing in Greek not understanding a Semitic poetic convention, whereby the same thing is repeated slightly differently. Here are two examples:

From Ugarit, ca. 1400 BCE (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, p. 144):

Whose fairness is like Anath's fairness?
Whose beauty is like Ashtart's beauty?

This helped explain why, though Anath appears in Semitic literature, nobody could find any temples dedicated to her nor images of her. Once they figured out that Anath and Ashtart were two different aspects of the same goddess, the mystery was solved.

The second example, involving the detail the author of Matthew took too literally, is Zechariah 9:9:

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Lo, your king comes to you;
triumphant and victorious is he,
humble and riding on an ass,
on a colt the foal of an ass.

Since Zion is the temple mount in Jerusalem, the daughter of Zion and the daughter of Jerusalem are one and the same. Likewise, the ass and the "colt the foal of an ass" are one and the same. In his eagerness to have Jesus fulfill the prophecy of Zech. 9:9, and because he didn't understand the poetic convention, the author of Matthew gave us Hokulele's "rodeo Jesus" (Mt. 21:6, 7):

The disciples went and did as Jesus had directed them; they brought the ass and the colt, and put their garments on them, and he sat thereon.

Fundamentalist apologists go through all kinds of verbal gymnastics trying to explain that Jesus only actually only sat on the mother donkey, who followed the colt out of maternal instinct. So the disciples led the colt, and the mother followed, carrying Jesus. Of course v. 7 above says Jesus sat thereon, referring to the garments draped on both beasts.
 
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