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Biblical Plagiarism

Lord Emsworth said:
Suppose you are faced with a list of several dozens of claims. Suppose furthermore that of those several dozens of claims a handful can be confirmed to be so-so true, whereas the rest is either outright false, or unconfirmed/baseless. What would you call this?

In my book that is garbage.
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So just some of them or most of them?
 
TimCallahan said:
Let me suggest three good books on the subject: Gospel Fictions and Who Wrote the Gospels?, both by Randel Helms, and The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark by Dennis MacDonald.

In Gospel Fictions Helms points out that, particularly with respect to the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew Mark and Luke), the gospel writers ransacked the Hebrew Scriptures (what we call the "Old Testament") for miracles, prophecies etc. They particularly used the miracles of Moses, Elijah and Elisha as source material. In addition, Helms points out that the raising of Lazarus in the Gospel of John was probably based on Egyptian material.

Helms adds more material in Who Wrote the Gospels? which is somewhat patterned after Richard Elliott Friedman's Who Wrote the Bible? He also points out that material from Euripides' play The Bacchae was used for the miraculous release from prison of both Peter and Paul in two separate incidents in the Book of Acts.

MacDonald points out that many odd aspects of the Gospel of Mark - a second, lesser, miracle of loaves and fishes, Jesus cursing a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season and the naked young man who turns up when Jesus is arrested in the garden of Gethsemane - may well be in that gospel because it was deliberately patterned after the Homeric epics, the Iliad and the Odyssey.

About all that was likely historical about Jesus was that he was a messianic pretender who was arrested by the Romans for sedition - possibly with his own complicity, since he held the deluded belief that he would rise from the dead - and was crucified. He may well have been influenced by the Greek philosophical school of Cynics, who eschewed possessions as well as being influenced by Israelite prophets who lived in the same fashion.
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"101 Myths of the Bible" is another good one, detailing how many of the Old Testament stories seem to have been inspired by Egyptian mythology.
 
Puppycow said:
OhMan said:
Right now I have quantity over quality, though I desire it the other way round. Even just 5 good examples would be enough for me to make my case. These examples would have to A. predate the bible B. biblical authors would have had access to them.
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So you've already got your conclusion, now you just need to find some evidence to support it, right?
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Yes. It's called making a prediction. He's suggesting that, if the Bible is not the word of God, then there should be loads (at least 5) of precursors of similar stories from which it was lifted.

It's a pretty solid prediction, I'd wager. There's writings from some guy about 400 AD where he's greatly concerned about the actual, known existence of quantities of the stuff. This guy concluded they must have been pre-forged by the Devil in anticipation of the coming Jesus so as to just look like The Bible was a cheap, derivative work.

Go figure. Science.
 
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Yithmas said:
I find it quite interesting that Sumerian Head Honcho's name is Ela and the Judeo-Christian god is called Elohim in Genesis, which is the plural form of Eloi.
Which of course is quite similar to both Ela and Allah.
You could make a linguistig argument that the Abrahamitic god is none other than the guy in charge of the Sumerian pantheon, whcig would be so awesome!
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As far as I know, the head of the Sumerian pantheon was Anu. of his sons, Enlil was considered to be in the number two position, and his brother, Enki was left battling it out for the number three position with his powerful wife, Ninhursag.

Anu remained the great patriarch of the Akkadian gods. One of his titles was Abu-ramu, "Exalted father." This was the probable source of the name of Abram, who became Abraham. Abram's father, Tereh, was the name of an Aramean moon god.

The Akkadian word corresponding with the West-Semitic El ("god") was Ilu, while the Arabic version of the word is Ilah. Thus, the most important city in Mesopotamia was Bab-ilu, "Gate of God" (corrupted by the Greeks to Babylon) The Arabic word for "God" is al-Ilah, "The god," or God with a capitol "G." The contraction of al-Ilah is Al'lah.
 
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It has been said that the story of Samson is a disguised version of the story of Hercules, but I do not know enough about Hercules to verify that.

There are some instances in which the Biblical authors plagiarize each other. For example, the stories in Genesis 12, Genesis 20 and Genesis 26 are basically the same story, but with different combinations of players. One of the stories involves Abraham and Pharaoh, another involves Abraham and King Abimelech, and the third involves Isaac and King Abimelech. (Poor Abimelech! If the stories are literally true, then he fell for the same disastrous ruse twice!)

The preposterous tale of Jesus's escape into Egypt, which appears in the book bearing Matthew's name, appears to be a thinly veiled attempt to equate the infancies of Moses and Jesus.
 
Brown said:
It has been said that the story of Samson is a disguised version of the story of Hercules, but I do not know enough about Hercules to verify that. There are some instances in which the Biblical authors plagiarize each other. For example, the stories in Genesis 12, Genesis 20 and Genesis 26 are basically the same story, but with different combinations of players. One of the stories involves Abraham and Pharaoh, another involves Abraham and King Abimelech, and the third involves Isaac and King Abimelech. (Poor Abimelech! If the stories are literally true, then he fell for the same disastrous ruse twice!)

The preposterous tale of Jesus's escape into Egypt, which appears in the book bearing Matthew's name, appears to be a thinly veiled attempt to equate the infancies of Moses and Jesus.
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Concerning the hilted section:Both Heracles and Samson were solar heroes, mortal or demi-god stand-ins for the sun god. This is particularly true of Samson, or, in Hebrew Shimshon = "sunlight."
 
Marduk said:
source please ?
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Apologies... I seem to have gotten something confused, there...

TimCallahan said:
As far as I know, the head of the Sumerian pantheon was Anu. of his sons, Enlil was considered to be in the number two position, and his brother, Enki was left battling it out for the number three position with his powerful wife, Ninhursag.

Anu remained the great patriarch of the Akkadian gods. One of his titles was Abu-ramu, "Exalted father." This was the probable source of the name of Abram, who became Abraham. Abram's father, Tereh, was the name of an Aramean moon god.

The Akkadian word corresponding with the West-Semitic El ("god") was Ilu, while the Arabic version of the word is Ilah. Thus, the most important city in Mesopotamia was Bab-ilu, "Gate of God" (corrupted by the Greeks to Babylon) The Arabic word for "God" is al-Ilah, "The god," or God with a capitol "G." The contraction of al-Ilah is Al'lah.
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Yes, exactly... Now where did I get the "Ela" from... Darn!
Still, the linguistic argument could be constructed from what Tim mentioned. It basically goes the same way as Deus-Zeus-Ziu-Tyr (yeah, the last two are actually the same guy, I know).
 
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Brown said:
The preposterous tale of Jesus's escape into Egypt, which appears in the book bearing Matthew's name, appears to be a thinly veiled attempt to equate the infancies of Moses and Jesus.
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Both the nativity stories (two different stories that were set at least ten years apart) seem to be an attempt to explain why the Messiah, who was supposed to be born in Bethlehem, came from Nazareth. The trip to Egypt does seem like an unnecessary detour, though.
 
Delvo said:
Why would there be such a thing, and what are the defining traits?
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As to why there's a mortal hero who has solar traits, I suspect it's a variation of the idea of the dying an rising god.

The characteristics of the solar god / hero are:

He has long flowing hair, representing the sun's rays. This is often source of his strength. Th Greek sun god Helios is represented with such hair, as is, of course, Samson.

He is represented as overcoming or killing (i.e. having sovereignty over) a lion, which because of its tawny mane is seen as a solar symbol. Often the hero is represented as either holding the lion or wrestling with it. These include: Gilgamesh wrestling with a lion in a Sumerian cylinder seal, a Persian relief of Gilagamesh holding two lions by their tails, a Minoan relief of a hero holding two lions by the forelocks of their manes, a Phoenician statue of Baal Melkarth holding a lion by its hind legs, Heracles killing the Nemean lion with his bare hands, and, of course, Samson also killing a lion with his bare hands.

Solar deities and heroes usually have a sickle-shaped weapon, probably symbolizing the harvest. Sickle-shaped swords were wielded by Marduk, Ra, Shamash and Gilgamesh. In ancient Israel the jawbone of an ass, sharpened on one edge, was frequently used as a sickle.

Solar heroes are particularly lusty, passionate, quick-tempered and impetuous. When Samson isn't killing Philistines, he's off whoring after Philistine women. He's also represented as partying and drinking. The marriage feast at which he wagers that his buddies can't guess his (solar) riddle is a mishteh, literally a drinking bout.

It could be argued that, since, in near-eastern iconography, Gods and kings are represented as standing on lions as a symbol of sovereignty, that killing a lion doesn't necessarily make hero specifically a solar hero. Also, most swords up to nearly the end of the Bronze Age were somewhat sickle-shaped.

However, Samson is definitely a solar hero. His name means "sunlight." Not only does he kill a lion and slay 1,000 Philistines with a sickle-shaped jawbone of an ass (another solar animal, by the way), but other of his attributes and the acts he performs involve solar symbolism:

His birth to a woman in her old age is miraculous, unlike any other of the judges, but much like the semi-divine patriarchs, the great judge and kingmaker Samuel, and, in the Gospel of Luke, John the Baptist. Samson is born in Zorah, a small town near to a and a subsidiary of Beth-shemesh, which means "House of the Sun."

He catches 300 foxes, ties torches to their tails and sets them loose to run through the wheat-fields of the Philistines. The fox, because of it's red fur, is yet another solar animal. At the Roman festival of Cerelia, honoring the goddess Ceres (Demeter), men hunted foxes with torches tied to their tails, in the circus.

He carries off the gates and gate posts of the city of Gath and sets them up on a hill opposite Hebron. Among the peoples of the the near east and the Mediterranean the sun was seen as entering the sky in the east through gates and leaving it through gates in the west.

He loses his power when his long hair (the sun's rays) is shorn. Rather than simply killing him at that point, the pragmatic thing to do, the Philistines blind him - which also has solar implications - and chain him to a wheel. Making endless circuits is another solar trait.
 
Marduk said:
I have never seen Bel Marduk with a sword, do you have a source ?
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Looking at the illlustration of sun god / hero weapons on p. 207 of my book Secret Origins of the Bible, I may have to call the sickle-shaped instrument something other than a sword. I got the material from The Samson-saga by Abram Smythe Palmer, first published in 1913.

Palmer also asserts that the names of both Marduk and Nimrod had solar associations: N-amar-udak is a Babylonian name meaning "brightness of day," and the similar Assyrian name Namra-udad means "brilliant day god." Perhaps you, Marduk, since I know you have some expertese in these matters, could comment on how Palmer's level of accuracy regarding these names.

Nimrod, as a "mighty hunter before the LORD," may have solar associations, in that sun gods / heroes were usually expert hunters as well.
 
TimCallahan said:
Looking at the illlustration of sun god / hero weapons on p. 207 of my book Secret Origins of the Bible, I may have to call the sickle-shaped instrument something other than a sword. I got the material from The Samson-saga by Abram Smythe Palmer, first published in 1913.
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without seeing which illustration it is I won't be able to help with that, Bel Marduks regular weapons were a spear/spade, a trident (abubu), a net and magical offensive powers. Ninurta who is often misidentified as Bel Marduk carried a sickle sword
TimCallahan said:
Palmer also asserts that the names of both Marduk and Nimrod had solar associations: N-amar-udak is a Babylonian name meaning "brightness of day," and the similar Assyrian name Namra-udad means "brilliant day god." Perhaps you, Marduk, since I know you have some expertese in these matters, could comment on how Palmer's level of accuracy regarding these names.
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Marduk (Bel means lord as you know) translates directly from its Sumerian spelling Amar Utu as "calf of the sun", where Utu is the name of the Sumerian Sun god.
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e319.html (scroll to the bottom)
I wouldn't trust any translation made before the 1960s

TimCallahan said:
Nimrod, as a "mighty hunter before the LORD," may have solar associations, in that sun gods / heroes were usually expert hunters as well.
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Nimrod has been identified as several different Assyrian kings. This is not unusual as all kings claimed to be descended from one deity or other to establish their right to rule. So family lines would all be the same deity (like "I'm Spartacus" over a few generations) The clue iirc is in the cities established by him ("Babel, Uruk, Akkad and Calneh in the land of Shinar" )
Assyrians kings hunted lions as part of their royal remit and were often referred to as "the sun" or "image of Shamash" (Akkadian sun god)
 
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OK, so what other thematic categories of ancient mythical figures are there, and what traits make them what they are? And what animals (and plants?) go with which categories, and why?

This is the first time I've encountered this kind of thematic grouping of such characters, and also the first time I've heard of lions, donkeys, and foxes as "solar animals".
 
Delvo said:
OK, so what other thematic categories of ancient mythical figures are there, and what traits make them what they are? And what animals (and plants?) go with which categories, and why?

This is the first time I've encountered this kind of thematic grouping of such characters, and also the first time I've heard of lions, donkeys, and foxes as "solar animals".
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Oh my that's a big question. There are entire lecture series devoted to that topic. Heck, there are entire sets of encyclopedias devoted to that topic. It changes over time and cultures.

The most you can say is that if a group of myths from essentially the same area of the world, at around the same time, from cultures that are known to have had extensive contact, all share the same symbols then they are probably all the same myth edited and retold for different audiences. If on top of that they are essentially the same basic myth archetype (another concept that has had a great deal written about it) then that comes pretty close to clinching the deal.
 
Delvo said:
OK, so what other thematic categories of ancient mythical figures are there, and what traits make them what they are? And what animals (and plants?) go with which categories, and why?

This is the first time I've encountered this kind of thematic grouping of such characters, and also the first time I've heard of lions, donkeys, and foxes as "solar animals".
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The sun can be seen as either life-giving or destructive. Often times death gods were the gods of the sun in its destructive aspect. Alternatively, there sould be two gods, brother, who acted as tanists, i.e. co-king who alteranted rule. So, when the death god ruled the sun in its destructive aspect, his good brother ruled the underworld. Also, the sun made a daytime journey east to west across the sky and a nighttime journey west to east through the underworld west to east, so he would be at the eastern gates to enter the sky in the morning.

Since the death god ruled as the sun in its destructive aspect, his animal would then become associated with the sun. Thus, the North African katabatic wind, associated with that season, called the sirocco, which is quite enervating and desiccating, was also called "the ass's breath," the ass being an animal associated with the Egyptian god Set

I think the lion, with its tawny color and its mane, which can be likened to the sun's rays, is a natural as a solar symbol. As to the fox, its red fur would be seen as fiery. This, of course, refers specifically to the red fox. Here in California, our native foxes are gray.

I don't know of any solar plants, though plants of different sorts are involved other forms of divine symbolism.
 
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