Being transgender is hard

[Bill Thompson]

Few homosexuals are really "gay".
They picked that term because "gay" is a nicer sounding term than "queer".
So let's legalize same-gender marrage so all homosexuals can be truly "gay".

So now I wait and see how many dolts respond who don't know what the word "gay" originally means.

 

[Toke]

...
So let's legalize same-gender marrage so all homosexuals can be truly "gay".
...

Do you have any divorce statistics to back that one up.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Exactly how would one be able to tell if an animal was a different gender from its physical sex? What behaviours or actions would differenciate it and define that issue?

Intelligent animals should display similar symptoms of gender dysphoria. There is no reason that Apes (excluding humans of course), Elephants, or Cetaceans (whales, dolphins, etc.) aren't smart enough to understand their gender and try to self-mutilate out of disdain and discomfort. I've yet to see anything that suggests this is situation is occurring. And if it's only occurring in humans then we must ask why it only occurs in humans.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Few homosexuals are really "gay".
They picked that term because "gay" is a nicer sounding term than "queer".
So let's legalize same-gender marrage so all homosexuals can be truly "gay".

So now I wait and see how many dolts respond who don't know what the word "gay" originally means.

Flintstones!

 

[PhantomWolf]

Intelligent animals should display similar symptoms of gender dysphoria. There is no reason that Apes (excluding humans of course), Elephants, or Cetaceans (whales, dolphins, etc.) aren't smart enough to understand their gender and try to self-mutilate out of disdain and discomfort. I've yet to see anything that suggests this is situation is occurring. And if it's only occurring in humans then we must ask why it only occurs in humans.

Except that humans don't "self-mutilate out of disdain and discomfort" either. I have yet to hear of any TG woman cutting off her own genitila with a knife or trying to rip it off, it doesn't happen. So if it doesn't happen with humans, why should you expect that sort of thing in animals?

 

[L.Y.S.]

Except that humans don't "self-mutilate out of disdain and discomfort" either. I have yet to hear of any TG woman cutting off her own genitila with a knife or trying to rip it off, it doesn't happen. So if it doesn't happen with humans, why should you expect that sort of thing in animals?

This says otherwise.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16121084

 

[Dessi]

Ok, so transsexuality has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality, yet a person can for several years be 'confused' as to which of the two he belongs to?

Correct. Some trans people don't know they're trans, just like some gay people don't realize they're gay right away. I think a lot of trans people in this situation interpret their feelings as implying they are gay or just plain queer in some ineffable way. And it happens more often than you think, especially for late transitioners.

I can't find the source, but I read on another forum about a woman's person account in which, for a long time, she dated men prior to her transition. Although she readily labeled herself as a gay guy, she just didn't "click" with the gay community. She had this lifelong uncanny and unshakeable feeling of being an outsider, she envied the relationships straight women have with their boyfriends and husbands. It didn't occur to her until years later that she was transgender -- maybe she'd never heard of the term, maybe she never thought she could be transgender (it only happens to other people, right? right?), maybe she thought all other gay men had the curious feeling of being a straight woman too. Whatever the case, the realization made sense of a lifetime of sense.

I have a friend who has a similar experience: before transitioning, she dated women. She had the bizarre an inexplicable feeling of being gay, even though everyone around her would describe her as a vanilla straight guy. She asked herself, "how the hell could I be gay, I like girls!" She didn't fit in with gay guys, she couldn't relate to straight guys -- strangely enough, she found herself drawn more and more into lesbian communities, particularly the autostraddle community, and found her other transgender lesbians as well. No surprise she couldn't relate to straight guys, but she was neither straight nor a guy. She found a tremendous amount of comfort that there were other similarly situated people, though it took her a few more years before she was comfortable and financially prepared to make the transition

Read about Chaz Bono, I think his experiences are very very similar to the ones above.

 

[Dessi]

Except that humans don't "self-mutilate out of disdain and discomfort" either. I have yet to hear of any TG woman cutting off her own genitila with a knife or trying to rip it off, it doesn't happen.

I don't know, people do desperate things. I've definitely heard of women going to unlicensed practitioners for silicone pumping, and I've definitely heard of people performing orchiectomies on themselves (linky). Its very very dangerous, more than one person has died as a result.

 

[PhantomWolf]

This says otherwise.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16121084

While interesting, over all it doesn't back up your allegation that it should occur in animals. Looking deeper, since 1905 there have been only 125 cases of genitila mutilation, only 12 of which were cases of multiple attempts, and not all cases were TGs. The study also states that in the cases were it was done, it was as a premeditation of sex-conversion surgery, ie, they did it so that they could get sex-conversion surgery they could not otherwise get. How does this apply to animals?

 

[Merko]

Transsexuality and homosexuality have something in common, like, both appearing in humans.

Yeah. Or how about: conditions of people who find themselves attracted to persons with the same chromosomes that they have themselves.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Yeah. Or how about: conditions of people who find themselves attracted to persons with the same chromosomes that they have themselves.

Again you don't seem to be listening. Not all TGs are "attracted to persons with the same chromosomes that they have themselves" whereas all gay people are (other than gay TGs...)

 

[Merko]

Read about Chaz Bono, I think his experiences are very very similar to the ones above.

Sure, but there is absolutely nothing about that which is in any way at odds with anything I have said in this thread.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I have a friend who has a similar experience: before transitioning, she dated women. She had the bizarre an inexplicable feeling of being gay, even though everyone around her would describe her as a vanilla straight guy. She didn't fit in with gay guys, she couldn't relate to straight guys -- strangely enough, she found herself drawn more and more into lesbian communities, particularly the autostraddle community, and found her other transgender lesbians as well. No surprise she couldn't relate to straight guys, but she was neither straight nor a guy. She found a tremendous amount of comfort that there were other similarly situated people, though it took her a few more years before she was comfortable and financially prepared to make the transition

I can seriously relate to this story.

 

[Merko]

Again you don't seem to be listening. Not all TGs are "attracted to persons with the same chromosomes that they have themselves" whereas all gay people are (other than gay TGs...)

So exceptions are allowed in one case but not the other?

Seriously, if someone is attracted to persons with the same chromosomes there are two possibilities:
1. That person is homosexual (or bisexual)
2. That person is transsexual.

This makes these conditions related. They are related because they explain the same phenomena. They are related because many people mistake one for the other. You don't mistake things for other things that are not in some way related. People don't mistake an alligator for sugar. They don't mistake a crocodile for salt.

 

[Dessi]

Seriously, if someone is attracted to persons with the same chromosomes there are two possibilities:
1. That person is homosexual (or bisexual)
2. That person is transsexual.

Or you can be a cisgendered man in a heterosexual relationship with a transwoman.
Or a cisgendered woman in a heterosexual relationship with a transman.
Or a cisgendered woman in a homosexual relationship with a transwoman.
Or a cisgendered man in a homosexual relationship with a transman.
Or a transwoman in a heterosexual relationship with a transman.
Vice versa for all cases.

No one really looks at their partners chromosomes to determine if they find them attractive.

We don't really know what causes gender identity or homosexuality, I don't think we can say conclusively that the two are connected or "caused" by the same thing, particularly since gender identity and sexual orientation can and do vary independently from one another.

 

[Toke]

This makes these conditions related.

Ok, for a given value of related.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Or you can be a cisgendered man in a heterosexual relationship with a transwoman.
Or a cisgendered woman in a heterosexual relationship with a transman.
Or a cisgendered woman in a homosexual relationship with a transwoman.
Or a cisgendered man in a homosexual relationship with a transman.
Vice versa for all cases.

No one really looks at their partners chromosomes to determine if they find them attractive.

Don't forget the bisexuals!

 

[Toke]

Don't forget the bisexuals!

I kind of wonder why there is no mentioning of "bi-gender"?

Is it complicating things too much, or is it just that they manage in whatever bodies they have?

 

[Merko]

Or you can be a cisgendered man in a heterosexual relationship with a transwoman.
Or a cisgendered woman in a heterosexual relationship with a transman.
Or a cisgendered woman in a homosexual relationship with a transwoman.
Or a cisgendered man in a homosexual relationship with a transman.
Or a transwoman in a heterosexual relationship with a transman.
Vice versa for all cases.

For 3 and 4, there is no attraction between people having the same chromosomes. In all the reverse cases, the person feeling attraction is transsexual. So:

A person feeling attracted to a person with the same chromosomes may be:
1. Homosexual (or bisexual)
2. Transsexual
3. Attracted to a transsexual person (arguably without being homo- or bisexual).

However, case 3 doesn't explain a person who is attracted to people with the same chromosomes in general, but only when that happens in rare cases.

No one really looks at their partners chromosomes to determine if they find them attractive.

Of course you don't look at the chromosomes per se, but that does not mean they are unimportant. I don't choose to be attracted only to people with XX chromosomes. It just happens to be that way. I'd prefer if I could also be attracted to people with XY chromosomes, but unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case and I'm old enough that it doesn't really look very probable.

 

[Dessi]

I kind of wonder why there is no mentioning of "bi-gender"?

Is it complicating things too much, or is it just that they manage in whatever bodies they have?

I think its a cultural phenomenon. English speaking parts of the world don't really have that concept, but other cultures, third gender or two-spirit. The closest English word we have for the term is androgynous.

So with that said, I definitely know a few people who would describe themselves as:

ambigenderous/bi-gender (identifying as both)
genderless (identifying as neither)
genderqueer (identifying as whatever)
between genders (androgynous people, I've seen trans people use this when they retain mannerisms of their birth-assigned gender)
unlabeled

I know a guy with a male gender identity who, probably in the "ha ha only serious" kind of way, refers to himselfs indiscriminately with male and female pronouns.

One particularly fascinating person I know is the man during the day and his wife is the woman; at night, they switch roles, so he's female at night and she's male during the day. I believe both people have trans feelings, even had full intentions to transition, but it just never materialized. They both prefer gender neutral pronouns (ze/hir/hirs), but aren't offended by the use of gendered pronouns.


Long story short: I don't know an adequate answer to your question