Being transgender is hard

[L.Y.S.]

I would not be certain. TGs' drive for medical treatment in the west comes from their experience living in a western/Christian culture that is ruthlessly heteronormative. In this interview, the guest's physical self-hatred is rather blatantly bound up with people not seeing him in the social class that he wants to be a part of. It's a problem of having "markers" that cause people to perceive him a way he doesn't want to be perceived. If he's really miserable every single day, I'm not going to be the one to tell him that studying sociology for the next few years is the solution and wearing some makeup is not.

I've seen other cultures and they did in fact have other gender roles and other forms of sexuality were the norm. However, I think it will be practically impossible to overcome the negative stigma casted down by 1700 years of tradition. I'm not saying it won't happen, but the west will take decades to change. And frankly, I think we should spend decades more trying to figure out exactly what is going on. I am in no way advocating for prohibiting this practice. If it is what truly makes people happy; then I in no way, shape or form want to be responsible for a travesty. But there are so many questions that are still left to be answered. So much more to be desired.

As for the racial issue, I'd agree but that is a topic for another thread. It was merely to substantiate my case about individuals desiring to be something they cannot be without intensive surgery or treatment.

People just say they just know. But that isn't sufficient enough. There are some historical examples of these occurrences but not a whole lot. In fact, historically, the closest thing we have to anything mildly resembling TG pre-1800 were roman men who cross dressed and Egyptian women putting on false beards. There is so little known about what exactly causes people to be TG. And people say that we have decades of research. Well I and many others say that there needs to be more. This issue has never fully popped up in the past. No one has been documented committing suicide over not being in the right body pre-1950. We see nothing in nature to suggest that this phenomenon occurs naturally, nor do we know what to look for. We are just in the infancy of truly understanding the human mind and how it works. We barely have any understanding of how this process actually occurs. Once there is a clear and coherent idea as to what exactly causes this situation, then I can be more open-minded and truly understand. I've been on the fence for quite some time and I’m not coming off any time soon.

Why should I risk my reputation and argue in favor of this phenomenon? There is nothing to suggest it occurs in any other creatures besides humans. I regularly protect and defend homosexuality with great dignity and pride. Because there are mounds of evidence, including occurrences in nature that can back up my statements and dismantle even the greatest of skeptics. Here, those lines are not so clear cut. Our understanding is much smaller. People will most likely not be receptive to the idea. So most of the time if I hear someone bashing this subject I just change the subject and avoid it all together. All in all, we need to find out more and get to the root causes of what sparks this situation.

 

[Toke]

One problem with the "We need further studies before doing anything" is that there are people right now who would be happier in a modified body.

Another is that there are already sufficient studies to at least convince the medical profession to hand out hormones.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

In this chapter, we review and critique how conventional models of gender and sexual identity development have represented the experiences of transgender individuals, and we argue for an expanded model of transgender identity development which can accommodate the diversity of their lived realities. Transgender is a broad category typically used to denote any individual whose gender identity or presentation either violates conventional conceptualizations of “male” or “female” or mixes different aspects of male and female role and identity. Despite increasing social scientific acknowledgment and investigation of transgender experience, most contemporary perspectives presume that the primary identity dilemma for transgender individuals is a conflict between one’s psychological gender and one’s biological sex, such that the normative and healthy endpoint of transgender identity development is the achievement of a stable, integrated, unambiguous identification as 100% male or 100% female, often achieved via some form of physical transformation aimed at bringing one’s psychological gender and one’s physical gender presentation into alignment. Yet there is increasing evidence that such dichotomous models of gender fail to accommodate the true complexity and diversity of transgender experience. Hence, in this chapter we argue for broader, more flexible models of gender identity development among transgender individuals which can accommodate the fact that for some of these individuals, identity development will have a linear trajectory leading to a singular outcome, whereas for others, identity development may be a recursive process that accommodates multiple and shifting identity states over time. We explore the implications of such an expanded model of identity development for clinical practice and intervention with transgender individuals.

Linky.

The group recommended changing the diagnosis to one based on distress rather than on identity, on which the current diagnosis is based. Hence, they proposed changing the name of the diagnosis from Gender Identity Disorder to the more accurate and less pathologizing Gender Dysphoria, a name familiar to the field, used before, and describing the condition of distress. They proposed the following criteria for a diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria in Adults: (a) strong and persistent distress with physical sex characteristics or ascribed social gender role that is incongruent with persistent gender identity, and (b) the distress is clinically significant or causes impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning and this distress or impairment is not solely due to external prejudice or discrimination. There was consensus that a transgender identity is not pathology. Gender variant individuals are not inherently disordered; rather, the distress of gender dysphoria is the psychological problem.

Linky.

No offence, but reading this thread is like taking a trip back to the Eighties or Nineties. There are so many things that I would life to talk about, but too many posts to cover. So let's try to establish some things:

1) We are dealing with Psychology, which takes social nonconformity into account. Much of gender is socially constructed, but the DSM will still note where people feel distress at those constraints.

2) The trans population is quite varied. We can say that they have Gender Dysphoria in common, but it will manifest in many different ways.

3)

Transsexualism has been recorded since ancient times; Herodotos wrote about the mystical Skythenian disease from north of the Black sea. Externally, normal men wore women’s clothing, did women’s work and were notable in that they had a feminine personality as well as female behaviour. The picture of Hercules wearing a dress, serving Omphala, is as a prime example of transsexualism in ancient Greece. In the middle ages the most famous transvestites were three Frenchmen, the brother of King Henry III, the Abbé of Choisy and the diplomat Chevalier d’Eon. The term ‘eonism’, a synonym for transvestitisms, was named after the diploma

Linky.

4) Dysphoria is not comparable to other unrealised wishes (As seen on South Park). Gender is a peculiar mix of social science and neuroscience that doesn't yield easy answers. Many studies have been conducted showing biological and childhood bases for it. Conversion therapy, just like that with homosexuals, proved to be ineffective. Attempting to improve wellbeing without major surgery is the standard practice.

5) I am going to repeat, gender is a complex issue that is not "essentially" any one thing. The current consensus is more of an "all of the above" view that takes into account many different factors.

 

[Dessi]

In fact, historically, the closest thing we have to anything mildly resembling TG pre-1800 were roman men who cross dressed and Egyptian women putting on false beards.

French explorers documented men in women's social roles in Native American cultures as early as 1675:
http://www.outhistory.org/wiki/Third-Gender_Roles_in_Indiana-Area_Native_Americans

And the Hijra in India, who still exist in large numbers today, have been around for 4000 years:
http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2008/05/hijras-indian-changing-rights

English and early American history is full of colorful people crossdressing for hundreds of years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_crossdressing#Historical_figures

So, historically, transgender feelings have been a part of human culture for at least as long as homosexuality. I don't think its as rare you're implying.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

French explorers documented men in women's social roles in Native American cultures as early as 1675:
http://www.outhistory.org/wiki/Third-Gender_Roles_in_Indiana-Area_Native_Americans

And the Hijra in India, who still exist in large numbers today, have been around for 4000 years:
http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2008/05/hijras-indian-changing-rights

English and early American history is full of colorful people crossdressing for hundreds of years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_crossdressing#Historical_figures

So, historically, transgender feelings have been a part of human culture for at least as long as homosexuality. I don't think its as rare you're implying.

There is a similar debate with looking for homosexuals in history. While we have to be aware of hindsight bias, and homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle is a recent cultural convention, there was definitely something going on in those tents .

 

[truethat]

This must be backwards.

If a man (in a man or womans body, makes no difference) is sexually attracted to men, then he is a homosexual, no? Otherwise the whole discussion makes no sense.

Yes I did write that backwards. My apologies, it can be a bit confusing.



If a man who identifies his gender as a man is attracted to a woman he is heterosexual. If a woman who identifies her gender as a man is attracted to a woman he is a heterosexual. Same thing. It's just the body doesn't match up to the mind.




Once again I have seen that the conversation keeps going to homosexuality.

Homosexuality is a Sexual Orientation. This has absolutely nothing to do with gender.

Please people, at least attempt to understand the difference in this before trying to discuss transgender issues.

Gender and Sexuality are completely different. I know there is a lot of confusion in this but it is essential to understanding.

 

[truethat]

Bold part is important. Unlike people with an irrational amputee fixation, surgical procedures which help them transition are not maladaptive.

A person's gender identity is immutable and unlearned. No matter how hard you try, you can't counsel a person into accepting a new gender -- there are numerous examples where, doing just that, drives a person to suicide (David Reimer, Kurk Murphy). Reparative therapy is dangerous, its quack medicine, and it kills people.

On the other hand, nearly everyone who successfully transitions have a tremendous increase in personal happiness. Transitioning is the treatment for transgenderism and gender dysphoria, which is pretty much the position of every major psychological and psychiatric organization in the world.

Unless you know something different from these organizations or even transgender people themselves, I don't think there's any point comparing gender dysphoria to anorexia or amputee fixators.

This, I quoted it in the hopes that people will realize how important it is.

 

[truethat]

Correct. Some trans people don't know they're trans, just like some gay people don't realize they're gay right away. I think a lot of trans people in this situation interpret their feelings as implying they are gay or just plain queer in some ineffable way. And it happens more often than you think, especially for late transitioners.

I can't find the source, but I read on another forum about a woman's person account in which, for a long time, she dated men prior to her transition. Although she readily labeled herself as a gay guy, she just didn't "click" with the gay community. She had this lifelong uncanny and unshakeable feeling of being an outsider, she envied the relationships straight women have with their boyfriends and husbands. It didn't occur to her until years later that she was transgender -- maybe she'd never heard of the term, maybe she never thought she could be transgender (it only happens to other people, right? right?), maybe she thought all other gay men had the curious feeling of being a straight woman too. Whatever the case, the realization made sense of a lifetime of sense.

I have a friend who has a similar experience: before transitioning, she dated women. She had the bizarre an inexplicable feeling of being gay, even though everyone around her would describe her as a vanilla straight guy. She asked herself, "how the hell could I be gay, I like girls!" She didn't fit in with gay guys, she couldn't relate to straight guys -- strangely enough, she found herself drawn more and more into lesbian communities, particularly the autostraddle community, and found her other transgender lesbians as well. No surprise she couldn't relate to straight guys, but she was neither straight nor a guy. She found a tremendous amount of comfort that there were other similarly situated people, though it took her a few more years before she was comfortable and financially prepared to make the transition

Read about Chaz Bono, I think his experiences are very very similar to the ones above.

Chaz has done amazing work in explaining this to people and he really needs to be commended. He thought he was a lesbian for years. But he is a straight male in a woman's body.

Honestly I know it can be confusing with the use of gender pronouns but once you sort it out (though I made a mistake in an earlier post) it is remarkably easy to understand.

 

[Finn McR]

Edited by Cleon: 

Breach of membership agreement removed.

Integrating into one's target gender is the only cure for gender dysphoria.

Not everyone has the financial means to do so, and around 40% of people who don't attempt suicide at least once in their lives. Telling a person to "man up" or "get your head on right" is beyond offensive. Why you would even think that's an appropriate response is beyond me.

But there are plenty of people who hate some aspect of their physicality (I have fat ankles, I have fat knees, I'm a girl with a mustache, I have a hairy back, I have such a hairy back that it runs up into my face, I have no chin, my nose is too small/too big, my ears stick out, I have growth-spurt stretch marks, I have terrible acne, I have a uni-brow, my breasts are tiny, my breasts are huge, my nipples look funny, I have huge areolae, one ball hangs low, I am not circumcised, I am circumcised, I have dangly labia, I have puffy labia, I am hairy "down there", I have a pimply butt, I have spider veins in my legs, I have vericose veins, I have ear hair, I am shy, I am abrupt with people, I am loud, I am weird, I am too fat, I am too skinny).
I expect that many people would like to be some Hollywood ideal with perfect teeth/perfect skin/perfect physique. How different is that from the desire to be a different gender? Do transwomen want to be hippy, bloated, puffy faced women, or trim, beautiful women? Do transmen want to be beer-bellied, hairy-backed guys, or buff, scruffy bearded dudes? Do they care?

 

[truethat]

But there are plenty of people who hate some aspect of their physicality (I have fat ankles, I have fat knees, I'm a girl with a mustache, I have a hairy back, I have such a hairy back that it runs up into my face, I have no chin, my nose is too small/too big, my ears stick out, I have growth-spurt stretch marks, I have terrible acne, I have a uni-brow, my breasts are tiny, my breasts are huge, my nipples look funny, I have huge areolae, one ball hangs low, I am not circumcised, I am circumcised, I have dangly labia, I have puffy labia, I am hairy "down there", I have a pimply butt, I have spider veins in my legs, I have vericose veins, I have ear hair, I am shy, I am abrupt with people, I am loud, I am weird, I am too fat, I am too skinny).
I expect that many people would like to be some Hollywood ideal with perfect teeth/perfect skin/perfect physique. How different is that from the desire to be a different gender? Do transwomen want to be hippy, bloated, puffy faced women, or trim, beautiful women? Do transmen want to be beer-bellied, hairy-backed guys, or buff, scruffy bearded dudes? Do they care?

All of the "quirks" that you identify have nothing to do with gender. Do you think that "transpeople" hate all aspects of their physical body?

Think of the issue, why do so many transgendered MTF NOT have sexual reassignment surgery? Why do so many FTM not have a fake penis put on? It's not necessarily about "not liking" their body, it's often about not being able to present to the world as the gender with which they identify.

If you have a puffy vajayjay you can wear pants and no one will know. If you have a penis and you tuck, no one needs to know. It's not about not liking the body per se, but not being able to be the gender with which you self identify because of physical appearances that cause you not to be able to be who you are.

I still don't get why this kind of conversation is going on. This is not about "not liking something about your body" it's about being trapped in the opposite gender's body.

And mountains of scientific evidence confirm this.

 

[Gazpacho]

How different is that from the desire to be a different gender?

TGs for the most part do not want to be a "different" gender. They want to be the gender that they feel, and have always felt, that they are. Those who undergo reassignment do so because they have found that their bodies, in the present social context, are an obstacle to that goal.

The situations where not being cover model attractive poses a problem for social interaction are narrow. The situations where it's a problem to be perceived in a gender that you are not prepared to accept are pervasive. People who are not cover model attractive are not assaulted for it on a regular basis. Those are the differences.

 

[Aepervius]

Indeed, I don't know what it means to "be female" and I have been female for 47 years. I'm just me. As mentioned in previous posts I was very much the tomboy as a child. I loved "boy toys", had short hair and again, I was just me.

Does having a vagina and breasts make someone female? Is it about getting your period, giving birth, going through menopause? Or is it a societial construct?

I'm not trying to be insulting, snarky or facetious but I don't really understand how someone can say they know they were born in the wrong body. Where does that knowledge come from?

For what's worth, except the few stereotype which are good for comedy value, I have no clue either what#s to be a man.

 

[sophia8]

Two? Seriously? Any idea what those signs were?

Try this article.

 

[quadraginta]

Try this article.

Good article. Thanks for the link. Straight reporting without being judgmental.

As I read it I thought to myself that I could not discern anything that the child's parents were doing wrong as parents.

Apparently some of the neighbors aren't quite as good at being neighbors.

 

[truethat]

Although I've tried to tone it down a bit, I would like to point out that this thread is still filled with people who want to have a "discussion" about the validity of what being transgendered means simply because "they don't understand" what gender entails.

This is what I find insulting to the transgendered community. It doesn't matter if you understand it, the scientific, medical and psychological communities DO understand it which is why it is a medical diagnosis.

The idea that all these experts are wrong because a bunch of posters on the internet "don't get it" is bizarre.

Please stop trying "not to get it" or to try to push the conversation in the direction your ignorance makes you comfortable discussing. If you want to understand it, the first step is accepting that a person can recognize they are in the wrong body for their gender.

I think the reason that there are so many cases in the news these days is that has been around for years but people had no idea what was going on. It's a natural phenomenon that occurs on a regular basis. I do agree with the poster that many cultures that are otherwise conservative, have recognize transgendered issues for many years and are quite accepting of it. I wish Western society would catch up.

 

[Alt+F4]

Good article. Thanks for the link. Straight reporting without being judgmental.

As I read it I thought to myself that I could not discern anything that the child's parents were doing wrong as parents.

Apparently some of the neighbors aren't quite as good at being neighbors.

Yes, I thought it was a good article too. What caught my eye is that is this description of the girl:

Livvy is almost stereotypically female. She adores dolls, pink, glitter, fluffy things, make-up, perfume and TV programmes about mermaids.

I know she's only ten but I wonder if she understands that being a girl isn't about these things. A girl can have short hair, play with "boy toys" and still be very much a girl. I don't think her parents are doing anything wrong either but perhaps it's society that dictates gender?

 

[truethat]

Yes, I thought it was a good article too. What caught my eye is that is this description of the girl:



I know she's only ten but I wonder if she understands that being a girl isn't about these things. A girl can have short hair, play with "boy toys" and still be very much a girl. I don't think her parents are doing anything wrong either but perhaps it's society that dictates gender?

Honestly it's comments like the ones that you have been making in the thread that contriubtes to the "she loved pink and girlie things"

I think it's very simple. The child knows they are the opposite gender. People like you insist this is next to impossible so the parents point out that they have always liked things associated with the opposite gender as a way of providing "evidence" for doubters who say things like "How do they know what it's like to be a girl if they've never been one before" and other silly statements.

People who identifiy with the gender that is reflected on the outside have no reason to question their gender. So we just get used to it. Only when the gender is trans does the boy or girl even notice that something isn't matching up.

I would say, if anything, the desire to have very girly things or to play with toys associated with girls, or to want female friends over boys is an effort to sort of salve this disconnect they feel by getting as close to being as girl as possible. Or a boy if it's the other way around.

Once again, just because you don't understand gender doesn't mean that it needs to be discussed for better understanding or debated because you don't "get it." If you read the evidence you will find most of your questions have been answered for decades.

 

[Alt+F4]

But there are plenty of people who hate some aspect of their physicality (I have fat ankles, I have fat knees, I'm a girl with a mustache, I have a hairy back, I have such a hairy back that it runs up into my face, I have no chin, my nose is too small/too big, my ears stick out, I have growth-spurt stretch marks, I have terrible acne, I have a uni-brow, my breasts are tiny, my breasts are huge, my nipples look funny, I have huge areolae, one ball hangs low, I am not circumcised, I am circumcised, I have dangly labia, I have puffy labia, I am hairy "down there", I have a pimply butt, I have spider veins in my legs, I have vericose veins, I have ear hair, I am shy, I am abrupt with people, I am loud, I am weird, I am too fat, I am too skinny).

Yes, and people with the above mentioned can get surgery to correct these things if they have the means to do so.

Do transwomen want to be hippy, bloated, puffy faced women, or trim, beautiful women? Do transmen want to be beer-bellied, hairy-backed guys, or buff, scruffy bearded dudes? Do they care?

Well we all want to look good, yes? I think MtF trans folks get a better deal than FtM folks. They no longer have the drag of shaving everyday and don't have to deal with the horrible annoyance of getting your period and then the worse horror of menopause.

 

[Alt+F4]

People like you...

Welcome to ignore you self-righteousness fool.

 

[Alt+F4]

For what's worth, except the few stereotype which are good for comedy value, I have no clue either what#s to be a man.

And we are to believe that a 2-year old or a 10-year old does.