Being transgender is hard

[Dessi]

For someone to ask in this day and age "how to we know the child isn't just going through a phase" when the child is diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder because the doctor can tell that they are not going through a phase as one of the criteria FOR the diagnosis, then it gets to be too much.

There are some basics you should just know.

Transgenders inwardly feel a different gender inside than is reflected outside.

Transitioning means presenting to the world as the gender you identify inside.

Some parents instead of forcing their child toconform to society will allow them to dress as their gender. This is honoring their child's identity.

Bathrooms have stalls and if a transgender is a ftm or mtf they should be allowed to use the bathroom with which they identify.

Hormones can be stopped and some things will reverse some not.

It is very important for a MTF transgender to start hormones before they hit puberty otherwise their future will be filled with costly surgeries and much stress. Therefore it is important to support a transgender in their decision to use hormones.

Most transgenders express great relief at being able to have their outside match their inside.

Complaints about surgery are not usually about changing the mind or regretting the gender identity issue, rather it's about pain, expectations that were too high, unsuccessful surgeries etc. Not regret at changing gender.

+1 Correct on all counts <3

 

[Stereolab]

Glad you finally got it. Basically having a conversation about "transgenders and is it right or wrong" without taking the time to properly educate yourself on the topic is offensive.

And this thread hasn't gone like that at all, but good try. I just see several people trying way too hard to be offended at everything. I know what hate and bigotry looks like, and I'm not seeing it in here, at least not from the people you see it in.

And I put the over/under at how many more "no one else is EDUCATED and no one UNDERSTANDS" posts you have in you at 100, have at it.

 

[truethat]

And this thread hasn't gone like that at all, but good try. I just see several people trying way too hard to be offended at everything. I know what hate and bigotry looks like, and I'm not seeing it in here, at least not from the people you see it in.

And I put the over/under at how many more "no one else is EDUCATED and no one UNDERSTANDS" posts you have in you at 100, have at it.

I didn't say no one. Most people I know are very educated about the topic and have taken the time to try to understand what the experience is like. That's why I was so shocked at the level of ignorance in this thread.

 

[Stereolab]

I didn't say no one. Most people I know are very educated about the topic and have taken the time to try to understand what the experience is like. That's why I was so shocked at the level of ignorance in this thread.

I like to think one can understand what the experience is like without redefining words such as "gender" and "disorder" and throwing science out the window.

 

[truethat]

I like to think one can understand what the experience is like without redefining words such as "gender" and "disorder" and throwing science out the window.

Right so why are you trying to? Gender doesn't mean what you think it does. Neither apparently does the word "disorder."



You guys make it sound like this is just my opinion and you can have a different opinion on being transgendered. Um NO. If you do you are wrong. Bigots like to try to disregard the medical and psychological expertise behind Gender Identity Disorder and either use "disorder" to suggest there is something mentally wrong with the person or pretend they need help fixin' their brain.

I posted the GMS link for the criteria of Gender Identity Disorder. I've posted a link to what gender means. If you don't want to accept how the medical and psychological community identify this disorder, then what does that say about you?

 

[PhantomWolf]

I like to think one can understand what the experience is like without redefining words such as "gender" and "disorder" and throwing science out the window.

One thing I do actually agree with you about. The trouble is that it's not truethat who is doing it.

Note that your own dictionary definition on Gender said nothing about genetics, it was behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex. Under that definition, if a person displays the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits of their opposite physical sex, then their gender is that opposite sex despite what their body is.

I'd also note that many people have provided studies and papers, and all they get is a bunch of "That one isn't good enough," and "I don't believe it" back.It feels like providing multiple engineering papers on why the WTC fell and always being told that it just doesn't answer the right questions. The fact that it has been studied for over 50 years and doctors have determined that the best course of treatment is for the physical body to match the brain's gender, is also ignored and given "we need to do more study before I accept that."

In the end it feels like certain posters refuse to believe it because they don't want to believe it and so will dismiss any and all evidence given, then truen around and basically say that you have a mental disease and you just need to be fixed by accepting your body. How can that not be taken as insulting?

I'm not even going to get into the whole demanding that people prove a negitive around animal consciousness not being the same as human consciousness, when accepting the non-status quo as though certain posters want would throw the entire farming and animal use industries into total chaos.

 

[truethat]

That's what bugs me about the whole thread. Whether or not a person wants to "Accept it" the Medical and Psychological community who has, as you said done over 50 years of research on this issue have made conclusions. A bunch of people who don't know what they are talking about have no right to "discuss" this issue in a way that strips away the dignity of transgendered people.

 

[tyr_13]

That's what bugs me about the whole thread. Whether or not a person wants to "Accept it" the Medical and Psychological community who has, as you said done over 50 years of research on this issue have made conclusions. A bunch of people who don't know what they are talking about have no right to "discuss" this issue in a way that strips away the dignity of transgendered people.

If you don't know, don't talk about it?

 

[Skeptic]

I get conflicting replies here. Did all but one doctors agreed or refused to treat this person? If most of them did I, of course, apologize and withdraw my criticism. Also, I didn't say sex-change operation, but treatment (at least I thought so -- it would make no sense otherwise, as endriconogists are not surgeons).

It tells you this much:

Not all endocrinologists specialize in transgender care.

Not all endocrinologists with that specialization treat children.
- They may have a moral objection to treating children.
- They might believe its a liability even when presented with a letter of recommendation from a gender therapist.

So, when doctors object to the treatment, you explain it away, but when doctors support it, you accept it as evidence it should be done? But one can explain away anything with a wave of the hand. Suppose I said, "some doctors are for this operation, which shows you how the liberal brainwashing in college and graduate school got to them..."? Would that be a good argument?

 

[Earthborn]

I get conflicting replies here. Did all but one doctors agreed or refused to treat this person?

Dessi clarified what she meant: only one endocrinologist agreed to treat the child.

Also, I didn't say sex-change operation, but treatment (at least I thought so -- it would make no sense otherwise, as endriconogists are not surgeons).

No,in post #55 you definitely said "sex change operation". Copy "endocrinologist" from someone else if you don't know how to spell it.

So, when doctors object to the treatment, you explain it away, but when doctors support it, you accept it as evidence it should be done?

Not all doctors have relevant expertise on the treatment of transgender individuals.

 

[Merko]

What is wrong with asking people to educate themselves even A LITTLE before joining a conversation.

Truethat, please educate yourself even A LITTLE before joining this conversation. You obviously don't have a clue.

transitioning usually means dressing and presenting to the world as the gender you self identify as. It doesn't have anything to do with hormones or surgery.

Except this is just completely wrong. Transitioning is the entire process: cross-dressing, hormones, surgery. Of course not everyone does hormones or surgery, no one claimed this. Again, you seem to have no clue either about the subject, or about what other people are actually talking about.

I'll say it again. I know of no psychologist who would look to animals to try to understand human consciousness, self awareness or mental issues.

So why would floating your own ignorance and lack of education be a valid argument? Please educate yourself even A LITTLE before joining this conversation.

Seriously, it's ok to be wrong sometimes and to make mistakes. But when all your arguments are all basically "I'm right and you are wrong and I won't tell you why but you are all stupid!!!" and then you get a lot of your own claims 100% demonstrably flat out wrong, it doesn't look very good.

Complaints about surgery are not usually about changing the mind or regretting the gender identity issue, rather it's about pain, expectations that were too high, unsuccessful surgeries etc. Not regret at changing gender.

Who claimed otherwise? Seriously? The only discussion about 'changing your mind' that I've seen refers to children. And there seems to be a 100% agreement in this thread that surgery is not suitable for children.

 

[truethat]

Truethat, please educate yourself even A LITTLE before joining this conversation. You obviously don't have a clue.


Except this is just completely wrong. Transitioning is the entire process: cross-dressing, hormones, surgery. Of course not everyone does hormones or surgery, no one claimed this. Again, you seem to have no clue either about the subject, or about what other people are actually talking about.


So why would floating your own ignorance and lack of education be a valid argument? Please educate yourself even A LITTLE before joining this conversation.

Seriously, it's ok to be wrong sometimes and to make mistakes. But when all your arguments are all basically "I'm right and you are wrong and I won't tell you why but you are all stupid!!!" and then you get a lot of your own claims 100% demonstrably flat out wrong, it doesn't look very good.


Who claimed otherwise? Seriously? The only discussion about 'changing your mind' that I've seen refers to children. And there seems to be a 100% agreement in this thread that surgery is not suitable for children.

Funny how the transgendered poster said my statements were correct and yet you pretend to school me. It's quite amusing.


When discussing a child "transitioning" it means they present themselves as the gender that they identify as. It doesn't mean they take hormones or have surgeries. I'm sure most people who do know what they are talking about understood the nuance.

These are not "My opinions" they are the facts. You guys want to have a conversation about your opinion of the facts? As if your opinion means anything in the conversation if you disagree with facts. Quite amusing.

Also nice try at the snark there. Too bad you fell flat on your face.

 

[Gazpacho]

And this thread hasn't gone like that at all, but good try. I just see several people trying way too hard to be offended at everything. I know what hate and bigotry looks like, and I'm not seeing it in here, at least not from the people you see it in.

Judging from your avatar you might have spent some time in the conspiracy section, perhaps? In which case you might be familiar with the challenge of explaining high school gravity concepts to the 100th noob for the 100th time without telling him that he's a flipping idiot, and seeing him respond that he's just trying to learn and doesn't understand why people are piling on. Or maybe he misuses the word "pull" or confuses melting with plastic deformation and gets a reaction he didn't expect. Or something along those lines.

It's like that for TGs. They've heard the same objections and "alternate theories" and "common sense"s and "did you consider"s and "here's my take"s and and "I demand proof"s thousands of times about something much more personal to them than 9/11 is to a debunker. If you come in after years of that repeating more of the same, you run the risk of getting a reaction that maybe you don't deserve, but it's understandable in context.

 

[truethat]

If you don't know, don't talk about it?

If you don't know, educate yourself before you attempt to talk about it. The internet is filled with resources and information has been provided in this very thread. To ignore the information and decide to chat it up because people wanna talk about how it seems weird and wrong to them to allow children to transition is vile and disgusting.

 

[truethat]

Judging from your avatar you might have spent some time in the conspiracy section, perhaps? In which case you might be familiar with the challenge of explaining high school gravity concepts to the 100th noob for the 100th time without telling him that he's a flipping idiot, and seeing him respond that he's just trying to learn and doesn't understand why people are piling on. Or maybe he misuses the word "pull" or confuses melting with plastic deformation and gets a reaction he didn't expect. Or something along those lines.

It's like that for TGs. They've heard the same objections and "alternate theories" and "common sense"s and "did you consider"s and "here's my take"s and and "I demand proof"s thousands of times about something much more personal to them than 9/11 is to a debunker. If you come in after years of that repeating more of the same, you run the risk of getting a reaction that maybe you don't deserve, but it's understandable in context.

I posted something similar to this a few pages back. It's similar to someone starting a thread about evolution when they have no understanding and then arguing with the people who are trying to explain it to them because "it doesn't make sense, I don't accept or I find it hard to believe."

And since we're discussing people not theories I find it rude and disrespectful.

 

[Earthborn]

Funny how the transgendered poster said my statements were correct and yet you pretend to school me. It's quite amusing.

Only Dessi said you were correct. She's not transgendered, AFAIK.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Australians have been given a third choice when describing their gender on passport applications, under new guidelines aimed at removing discrimination.

Transgender people and those of ambiguous sex will be able to list their gender as indeterminate, which will be shown on passports as an X.

People whose gender was different from that of their birth were previously required to have reassignment surgery before they could change their passport to their preferred sex.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-14926598

 

[Dessi]

Only Dessi said you were correct. She's not transgendered, AFAIK.

Not everyone would advertise a fact like that about themselves in public anyway.

 

[whatthebutlersaw]

This is what I'm saying about your level of ignorance. The fact that you need "evidence" for this is shocking to me.

Really. How old are you? If you are a teen I do apologize. But animal and human consciousness are entirely different. If you consider examples of feral children you will learn that language development is an essential cornerstone of what humans consider consciousness. Since aniimals (with the exception of whales) have no language it is very unlikely that they do have consciousness and self awareness to the degree that humans do. Therefore comparing their consciousness and awareness of gender to humans is a complete waste of time. I do not know of a single educated person that would suggest examining animals to determine human psychological issues. Since Transgender is Gender Identity Disorder and is recognized as a mental issue, the idea that you think looking at animals as a way to better understand this issue, is, to say the least, frightening.


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness-animal/

The highlighted bit is Stundie-nomworthy, standalone. I actually debated nomming it.

No matter how you feel about the subject, this is a skeptics' forum and evidence is usually required rather than taking blanket assertions from anyone, no matter how highly they think of themselves.

For a subject like this, it can also be helpful with personal anecdotes as many of us aren't and/or don't know anyone transgendered*.


Seriously - I come down on the same general side as you on the subject but I wouldn't side with you on anything on the strength of your argument, because you have none. Only assertions. The mechanics of topical discussions is not constant repetition of "I'm right because I say I am". Frankly, it bores the living **** out of me.

I'd rather see the arguments of those skeptical addressed with some - you know - facts and thought through arguments.

I don't find comparisons to the animal kingdom in and of themself to be offensive, because humans are part of the animal kingdom and some of our behaviours have equivalents in other animals, while others don't. It might not be relevant to this particular argument but it also is not offensive in and of itself. The way to decide that is to provide evidence. Not name calling.

Assertions - bad.
Evidence - good.

Someone mentioned the Swedish Tittmyran "experiment" and there are a couple of confusions around it. It is not located in Stockholm and it is not countrywide. The original Tittmyran is actually a daycare/preschool in my old hometown and the thinking behind that was not to raise gender neutral kids but to make paedagogs more aware of how _they_ interact with boys and girls differently. It started with teachers being filmed over time, interacting with the kids. When they saw themselves on the videos they were shocked at to what degree the gender of the child they interacted with changed their attitude. Among other things they found that while they spent a disproportionate amount of time on the boys the amount of negative feedback the boys got was generally higher than that of the girls. They also found they reinforced use of gender specific toys simply by the feedback they gave when the children played with them. The Tittmyran project (not an experiment) is aimed at addressing teacher behaviour - not child behaviour. ("Titt" means "Look", "Gawk" or "Look-in", "myran" means "the ant". It's a nonsense name that literally translates to "The Gawking Ant". Very typical Swedish preschool name. My former work place used department names like Sharks, Tigers and The Castle. Which is more fun than when I was a kid and we used only colours.)

The project has been going for, I think, some 14-15 years now and is being continuously evaluated. So far no kids show signs of being harmed by having teachers who try their best not to stereotype them.


* I sometimes hang on a Swedish language site which has a profile of "Any kind of alternative lifestyle." (This attracts all walks of life, including mainstream and vanilla. The point being that everyone is welcome, but must be willing to welcome everyone else. It is now past its popularity peak but has worked surprisingly well.) The site has a forum with subforums for almost everything under the sun, including HBT and Queer issues, which has an incredibly helpful sticky called FASQ (Frequently Asked Stupid Questions). It isn't as snarky as it sounds, but a venue where people unaware of the issues are allowed to ask all the stupid questions they want and the questions are answered by people who feel they are up for it. This means that only those who feel they have the energy and the patience to answer a stupid, but ernest, question nicely do so - and those who feel they can't take anymore stupid questions don't. The friendly people who are willing to answer questions also post questions they get in real life, which frustrate them because it gives them a chance to blow off some steam and at the same time maybe answer that question for someone who wondered, but hadn't gotten around to ask or suspected it was a stupid question and didn't dare ask anyone. Sometimes people share stories about social mishaps that they themselves find funny, poignant or explanatory. And just as no one blows up over the perceived stupidity of some questions - those participating because they are trying to learn, do not engage in "Well of course he was confused, you're clearly a guy!" posting as a response to anecdotes.

The main thing with that thread is that everyone participates in good faith. Obvious trolls are sometimes deleted, but even when the question isn't asked in good fatih, whoever can be arsed will answer it in good faith because a stupid question could have a really important answer. Anyone frustrated or angered by the questions choose not to anwer them which makes the thread friendly and sometimes quite silly. People make friends in it.

This little sticky on a little corner of the internet has proved very useful in dispelling myths and giving an open friendly face to transgender people and issues in Sweden. Because the stupid questions are permitted and those responding aren't patient Uncle Tom educators - just people who have the time and inclination. That thread is extremely helpful and no one is calling anyone an asshat. Somehow that seems to work better.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Not everyone would advertise a fact like that about themselves in public anyway.

True, I know how hard it was for me to come out on this issue, since then it is easier since people here know, but it's still not easy considering that anyone with half an ounce of detective skill could figure out who I am behind my Avatar, and I'm not transitioning. For someone that is, it is way harder.

The thing that gets me the most is that some people here feel they have a perfect right to judge me and what is going on in my head and to tell me to harden up, accept the body I got born with, and besides it's all a mental disease anyway, and refuse to listen to or accept anything I say. It's the sort of attitude that if it was in RL would make me want to punch them, and then they look surprised and act innocent when told that their statments insult people.