Being transgender is hard

I agree, the topic came up when the poster insisted on comparing transgender issues to animal sexuality. I asked that it not be examined that way as I felt it was derogatory and irrelevant. Which it is.

You still haven't explained how you know that animals don't understand gender. Links please? A few pages back I think it was Crossbow that linked to an interesting study involving monkeys and toys. Male monkeys were more inclined to play with "male toys" (wheeled toys) and female monkeys were more inclined to play with "female toys" (plush toys). This study had nothing to do with sexuality but rather what type of toys each monkey perfered to play with.
 
I hate to burst you bubble. :rolleyes:
You read it the wrong way around, all but one were willing the treat the girl, and it was around age 12 not 10. (Do you understand the practical differences in treating before or after puberty?)
Sorry, typo.

Only one endocrinologist was willing to treat my friend's daughter, she had a name change when she was 8, she's currently 10.
 
Last edited:
I'm not a guy, I'm a woman. Obviously you don't understand.

Who cares what your gender is? Guess what, so am I! You want a badge? You guys is a general expression. Isn't it funny though that it matters to you that I know what your gender is while you are on a thread dismissing the importance of recognizing ones gender. Ironic much?

Odd how you have nothing to contribute except nit picking irrelevant points. If you want to discuss the topic educate yourself on it before you start spouting off ridiculous assertions. That is all I have been saying.
 
You still haven't explained how you know that animals don't understand gender. Links please? A few pages back I think it was Crossbow that linked to an interesting study involving monkeys and toys. Male monkeys were more inclined to play with "male toys" (wheeled toys) and female monkeys were more inclined to play with "female toys" (plush toys). This study had nothing to do with sexuality but rather what type of toys each monkey perfered to play with.

Because although "gender" is sometimes used to mean "sex" in regard to this conversation "gender" is a self awareness and consciousness of ones self as male or female.

If "you guys" don't even know that animals do not experience self awareness or consciousness the way humans do I can't even begin to explain gender to you. Just understand that you are completely ignorant about this, so much so that it would probably take a month to explain it to you properly.

What is so shocking to me is how incredibly old fashioned your thinking is. The arguments you are making are just wow, I had no idea people actually thought the way "you guys" do about gender.

It really makes me feel for my transgendered friends.
 
If "you guys" don't even know that animals do not experience self awareness or consciousness the way humans do I can't even begin to explain gender to you.

Evidence of this? Of course not.
 
Last edited:
I agree, the topic came up when the poster insisted on comparing transgender issues to animal sexuality. I asked that it not be examined that way as I felt it was derogatory and irrelevant. Which it is.

Why do you think that it is offensive and derogatory to explore the connections between humans and animals, what we might have in common and what we might learn from each other?
 
That is what gender means. The premise you were making was that it was acceptable to discuss "animal gender issues"

So please explain to me what animal psychology and animal culture is. Thanks.

This might be helpful


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

As learned as you apparently think you are, it's amusing how you apparently don't understand the word "or".

the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex
 
Why do you think that it is offensive and derogatory to explore the connections between humans and animals, what we might have in common and what we might learn from each other?

What I have taken from this thread is that if you think nothing's wrong with transgenders it is offensive, and if you think something's wrong with transgenders it is offensive.
 
What I have taken from this thread is that if you think nothing's wrong with transgenders it is offensive, and if you think something's wrong with transgenders it is offensive.

Glad you finally got it. Basically having a conversation about "transgenders and is it right or wrong" without taking the time to properly educate yourself on the topic is offensive.
 
Evidence of this? Of course not.

This is what I'm saying about your level of ignorance. The fact that you need "evidence" for this is shocking to me.

Really. How old are you? If you are a teen I do apologize. But animal and human consciousness are entirely different. If you consider examples of feral children you will learn that language development is an essential cornerstone of what humans consider consciousness. Since aniimals (with the exception of whales) have no language it is very unlikely that they do have consciousness and self awareness to the degree that humans do. Therefore comparing their consciousness and awareness of gender to humans is a complete waste of time. I do not know of a single educated person that would suggest examining animals to determine human psychological issues. Since Transgender is Gender Identity Disorder and is recognized as a mental issue, the idea that you think looking at animals as a way to better understand this issue, is, to say the least, frightening.


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness-animal/
 
Last edited:
Well, someone on this thread said that one of the "struggles" of the parents is to find a doctor to perform this procedure. Except for one endriconologist (sp?), all other doctors refused. Which is as close as possible to total refusal as one can expect in the medical community (there's always someone who will perform any operation or therapy on anyone).

Does that tell us something about what the medical community thinks?
It tells you this much:

Not all endocrinologists specialize in transgender care.

Not all endocrinologists with that specialization treat children.
- They may have a moral objection to treating children.
- They might believe its a liability even when presented with a letter of recommendation from a gender therapist.

I don't think endos will refuse to treat children because they're skeptical that children be can reliably diagnosed with GID. Actually if they're in the field, pretty much all literature on the subject states that many transgender people develop these feelings at a very early age, most of their patients personal accounts will report the same thing.

Of course not, silly! It just shows the doctors are evil bigoted, except for that one understanding and caring one who has no problem performing sex-change therapy on a ten-year-old.
Who said anything about a sex-change? The word "sex-change" is a synonym for gender reassignment surgery, not hormone replacement therapy.
 
It tells you this much:

Not all endocrinologists specialize in transgender care.

Not all endocrinologists with that specialization treat children.
- They may have a moral objection to treating children.
- They might believe its a liability even when presented with a letter of recommendation from a gender therapist.

I don't think endos will refuse to treat children because they're skeptical that children be can reliably diagnosed with GID. Actually if they're in the field, pretty much all literature on the subject states that many transgender people develop these feelings at a very early age, most of their patients personal accounts will report the same thing.


Who said anything about a sex-change? The word "sex-change" is a synonym for gender reassignment surgery, not hormone replacement therapy.

Scary isn't it....;)
 
This is what I'm saying about your level of ignorance. The fact that you need "evidence" for this is shocking to me.

Really. How old are you? If you are a teen I do apologize. But animal and human consciousness are entirely different. If you consider examples of feral children you will learn that language development is an essential cornerstone of what humans consider consciousness. Since aniimals (with the exception of whales) have no language it is very unlikely that they do have consciousness and self awareness to the degree that humans do. Therefore comparing their consciousness and awareness of gender to humans is a complete waste of time. I do not know of a single educated person that would suggest examining animals to determine human psychological issues. Since Transgender is Gender Identity Disorder and is recognized as a mental issue, the idea that you think looking at animals as a way to better understand this issue, is, to say the least, frightening.


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness-animal/

A link regarding philosophy in regard to if animals are self-aware? Are you kidding me? Yes, I'm sure you are shocked that on a skeptic forum evidence is demanded. :rolleyes:

You say that except for whales that animals have no language, more stuff that you have no evidence for.

Keep making stuff up, no one in this thread, or in real life is buying any of your crap. You know absolutely nothing about transgendered issues, you know why? Because I SAY SO.
 
A link regarding philosophy in regard to if animals are self-aware? Are you kidding me? Yes, I'm sure you are shocked that on a skeptic forum evidence is demanded. :rolleyes:

You say that except for whales that animals have no language, more stuff that you have no evidence for.

Keep making stuff up, no one in this thread, or in real life is buying any of your crap. You know absolutely nothing about transgendered issues, you know why? Because I SAY SO.



Ok I take it you didn't read the link. Because it's all in there, not just philosophy but also the debates etc. It's a encyclopedia entry so I thought it would be a good place to start.. But I'm assuming that you must be pretty young or not someone who ever took a philosophy or psychology class, or a human development class.


I'll say it again. I know of no psychologist who would look to animals to try to understand human consciousness, self awareness or mental issues. I won't even say you are ignorant or that your comments are stupid.


It's just very very clear you have absolutely no education on this topic whatsoever. I would suggest you take the opportunity to learn more about it. Try reading the article, its a very simple and clear article. It's also completely off topic so I'm not going to discuss it again.


Just wanted to add that you seem to be confusing sentience and consciousness as consciousness is applied to humans. If you weren't you wouldn't question the source being from a "philosophical" encyclopedia because this is where that sort of consciousness is examined, it has not really ever been defined. But suffice it to say that if we cannot explain our own consciousness, to even attempt to explain "animal consciousness" is beyond our capabilities. Thus using it to "compare or contrast" human consciousness is bizarre beyond the pale.

Comparing monkeys playing with toys to human gender identity awareness is equally strange.
 
Last edited:
Who said anything about a sex-change? The word "sex-change" is a synonym for gender reassignment surgery, not hormone replacement therapy.

It was Skeptic that used the word operation, something that no one was suggesting for a 10-year old.
 
Another thread in this forum declared it is high time we should ban smoking. So, to sum up, sex-change therapy for pre-teens -- good; lighting up -- bad.

Do you really think these two issues are comparable? Who on this forum (beside you) "sumed up" that they were?
 
Last edited:
I know of no psychologist who would look to animals to try to understand human consciousness, self awareness or mental issues. I won't even say you are ignorant or that your comments are stupid.
How about this guy and everyone influenced by him, whose experiments gave rise to the animal liberation movement? Steve Maier's experiments on dogs to develop animal models of depression and the phenomenon of learned helplessness? Pretty much everyone in the field of comparative psychology?

Not trying to drag the thread off topic, but yes, psychologists study animal minds to learn about human psychology, something they've been doing for decades.
 
How about this guy and everyone influenced by him, whose experiments gave rise to the animal liberation movement? Steve Maier's experiments on dogs to develop animal models of depression and the phenomenon of learned helplessness? Pretty much everyone in the field of comparative psychology?

Not trying to drag the thread off topic, but yes, psychologists study animal minds to learn about human psychology, something they've been doing for decades.


Not when it comes to consciousness. Consciousness for humans has not at all been self defined. And yes he did do experiments examining separation anxiety So did John Bowlby, but please keep in mind that the mind of a baby could be compared to that of an animal precisely because it is on a different level of consciousness because babies also have no language at that age.

So perhaps I over stated when discussing "human" what I mean is conscious human as we define consciouness which is vague at best.

Feral children often don't recover into their adulthood.


Also please note that behavior is entirely different than consciousness and awareness. If you look at your "comparative psychology" it's mostly behavior. So is your learned helplessness link.

We can start another topic on this because it is completely off topic but it is an interesting discussion.
 
Last edited:
...Look, I'm interested in the issue because I have two good friends who are FtM transgenders. Feel free to tell me, Truethat, that I'm a horrible friend because I'm insulting and dehumanising them by failing to think in lockstep with you. I thought this would be an interesting thread to participate in but many of your posts are making me angry so I'll bow out.
 
...Look, I'm interested in the issue because I have two good friends who are FtM transgenders. Feel free to tell me, Truethat, that I'm a horrible friend because I'm insulting and dehumanising them by failing to think in lockstep with you. I thought this would be an interesting thread to participate in but many of your posts are making me angry so I'll bow out.

What is wrong with asking people to educate themselves even A LITTLE before joining a conversation.

For someone to ask in this day and age "how to we know the child isn't just going through a phase" when the child is diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder because the doctor can tell that they are not going through a phase as one of the criteria FOR the diagnosis, then it gets to be too much.

There are some basics you should just know.

Transgenders inwardly feel a different gender inside than is reflected outside.

Transitioning means presenting to the world as the gender you identify inside.

Some parents instead of forcing their child toconform to society will allow them to dress as their gender. This is honoring their child's identity.

Bathrooms have stalls and if a transgender is a ftm or mtf they should be allowed to use the bathroom with which they identify.

Hormones can be stopped and some things will reverse some not.

It is very important for a MTF transgender to start hormones before they hit puberty otherwise their future will be filled with costly surgeries and much stress. Therefore it is important to support a transgender in their decision to use hormones.

Most transgenders express great relief at being able to have their outside match their inside.

Complaints about surgery are not usually about changing the mind or regretting the gender identity issue, rather it's about pain, expectations that were too high, unsuccessful surgeries etc. Not regret at changing gender.


There is more and it's easy to find on the internet. Check out youtube.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom