Being transgender is hard

[Daylightstar]

... your body physically and mentally mutilate itself -- ...

Basically, I know nothing about transgender, except that it's about people feeling/thinking/knowing that they really are/should be another gender.

How should the above quoted be understood?

 

[Dessi]

It is a disorder if it severely afflicts the person. For example if it leads to depression, suicidal thoughts, etc. I agree there is nothing wrong with wanting to be the opposite gender, as long as it does not hurt you. But if it does.. then I'm afraid it is a disorder, and the only theoretically possible way to help that person is to make the person accept their own body as it is, with or without any adjustments within the realm of the possible.

Kind of an odd thing to say when, earlier in the thread, Earthborn posted:

People can be mentally stuck in so many different thinking patterns, including religions, phobias, compulsive obsessions, pedophilia, violence, whatever. My starting point is that the physical is the default position, and the psychological is a programmable unit. Psychology is a poorly developed science so far.

Psychology is a poorly developed science so far, which is why manipulating a person's mind is much harder than manipulating a person's body. The psychological is not a "programmable unit", far from it; and even if it were psychology as poorly developed as a science as it is so far doesn't provide us with the knowledge to program it. I think a medical treatment should try to fix a problem with the least invasive and best understood methods, and that doesn't include messing with the brain if that can be avoided.

If in the future treating transsexuals by manipulating their minds becomes as effective as treating them by manipulating their bodies, I think the starting point should be the patient's wishes, not some philosophical debate whether the "physical" or the "psychological" represents a person's "true identity".

It seems like your suggestion, that trans people should just accept their body is not the only theoretical treatment.

Transitioning is not maladaptive -- unlike, say, prescribing diet pills to anorexics. Its also easier, improves the lives of trans people, substantially reduces symptoms of gender dysphoria. Its no surprise that every major psychological and psychiatric organization recommend trans people to take steps (supervised by endocrinologist and gender counselor) to integrate into their target gender as an appropriate and preferred treatment for Gender Identity Disorder.

 

[Merko]

I don't see how that attitude implies they don't think it's a real condition. I think what he's saying is it's a real condition with no solution. Maybe it would come across better if he was comparing it to something like... someone born without legs. They know they ought to have legs. It's totally natural to want to have legs and to experience anguish about it. They can get prosthetic legs and maybe that will make them happier. But there are people out there born with useless legs that have come to terms with that and are happy. Others who never do.

Yes, that is a good analogy. I believe transgender people should have all the support we can give them. We should do all the research we can to help such people. But if a person without legs suggests that actually their prosthetic legs are real legs and the fact that they can't use a staircase is all due to the ill will and missing understanding from the rest of society.. then we should not play along and encourage that fantasy. Doing so would not be kind or caring, it would be disrespectful and misguided.

Transgender people are subjected to a lot of extremely real discrimination and violence and that is a problem in society, not in transgenders. But these are not the only problems transgender people are facing.

I beleive transgender people are typically counseled and informed ahead of any irreversible procedures of the limitations of such remedies. They are not being led to believe that it is right for everyone or that it will solve all their problems.

However, in the general debate, such as in this thread, such information is often missing and many seem to have an overly optimistic view of the results. Moreover, I'm a bit skeptical of the studies I have seen on the subject, as I have seen none that appear to have been designed to find out whether sex change therapy has positive consequences statistically. Rather, such conclusions have been drawn from studies that appear to have been designed for other purposes, such as evaluating the quality of the procedures themselves (eg how well the constructed vagina is functioning etc). With this in mind, I'm skeptical of recommending sex reassignment as a general solution for transgenders, but I'm not dismissive of individuals who have reached that decision after extensive discussion with experts in the field.

 

[Daylightstar]

... It has to do with a funamental belief and knowledge that you are in the wrong body, ...

Can this belief and knowledge be tested?

How is the 'you' seperate from te body?

 

[Moon-Spinner]

Instead of reviving the old thread about the vicious attack on a transsexual at a McDonalds, I thought this would be a proper place to post this update:

Attacker sentenced to 5 years

If you recall, this attack was videoed by a employee of McDonalds, and was all over the news. The 19 year old just got 5 years in prison for a Hate Crime, the 14 year old remains in a juvenile detention.

The victim still suffers mental anguish for being attacked for being a transsexual.

 

[Lithrael]

The opposite also exist. There are people who want to amputate perfectly healthy limbs.

The crucial difference between someone who hasn't got working limbs and wants some, and someone who has got working limbs and doesn't want them, is that the latter person has a problem with a perfectly good solution. We cannot give working limbs to anyone in the exact same way that we cannot give a different sex to anyone. I am pretty sure that most of the people in this thread who are saying anything resembling 'deal with it' are just saying that there simply is no very good solution for the problem of transgenders' bodies. It's trivially true that they have to deal with it because it's a fact. It only gets insulting when someone takes this that one step further and says they want to call someone on the fact they still don't have a vagina. Seems to me that'd be like meeting a marathon runner on two prosthetic limbs and saying 'well, you're running pretty well, mate, but you don't REALLY have legs, do ya, huh?' Like he doesn't know that!

 

[Merko]

It seems like your suggestion, that trans people should just accept their body is not the only theoretical treatment.

That is not my suggestion though. The small word 'just' makes all the difference in the world. My suggestion is that transgender people should accept their body. If hormones and/or surgery can help them in doing that, then great. But accepting their body is, for me, the big and important thing.

Transitioning is not maladaptive -- unlike, say, prescribing diet pills to anorexics. Its also easier, improves the lives of trans people, substantially reduces symptoms of gender dysphoria. Its no surprise that every major psychological and psychiatric organization recommend trans people to take steps (supervised by endocrinologist and gender counselor) to integrate into their target gender as an appropriate and preferred treatment for Gender Identity Disorder.

I would be interested reading a good source for that statement. I'm here to learn. My understanding is that not everyone diagnosed with gender identity disorder is recommended hormonal treatment, and that most are not recommended surgery. Maybe I'm wrong. And I'm not saying hormones or surgery does not help anyone. I'm just skeptical that it is the right way for everyone with this disorder, or that it would typically be the 'easier' path.

 

[Daylightstar]

The Merriam-Webster definition of gender is:

"the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex"
...

How about physical and functional traits?

 

[Earthborn]

But if a person without legs suggests that actually their prosthetic legs are real legs and the fact that they can't use a staircase is all due to the ill will and missing understanding from the rest of society.. then we should not play along and encourage that fantasy.

Meaningless analogy is meaningless.

Moreover, I'm a bit skeptical of the studies I have seen on the subject, as I have seen none that appear to have been designed to find out whether sex change therapy has positive consequences statistically.

I don't see how one could design such a study. The only people who get a sex change are the people who are thought to benefit from it most, so that's already a highly biased sample. And you can't give some of them a double blind placebo sex change.

 

[Dessi]

Instead of reviving the old thread about the vicious attack on a transsexual at a McDonalds, I thought this would be a proper place to post this update:

Attacker sentenced to 5 years

If you recall, this attack was videoed by a employee of McDonalds, and was all over the news. The 19 year old just got 5 years in prison for a Hate Crime, the 14 year old remains in a juvenile detention.

The still suffers mental anguish for being attacked for being a transsexual.

I think its a fair sentence. I saw the video when the story first broke, I thought Ms Polis was murdered right there. I can't help but think to myself that, without the video, there may not have been an investigation let alone criminal sentence whatsoever.

The criminal expresses remorse -- I don't buy it. She regrets being caught, regrets international condemnation lobbed at, regrets spending 5 years in jail. If there was no video made, would she have turned herself in? No. She probably would have told the story laughingly over and over to her friends about the time she "[censored] up a tranny".

Will be interesting to see where the civil trial goes.

 

[Toke]

That is not my suggestion though. The small word 'just' makes all the difference in the world. My suggestion is that transgender people should accept their body. If hormones and/or surgery can help them in doing that, then great. But accepting their body is, for me, the big and important thing. ....

This is close to meaningless in the context of whether people should learn to live with their bodies as they are, or try to change them to fit their minds.

 

[quadraginta]

The crucial difference between someone who hasn't got working limbs and wants some, and someone who has got working limbs and doesn't want them, is that the latter person has a problem with a perfectly good solution. We cannot give working limbs to anyone in the exact same way that we cannot give a different sex to anyone. I am pretty sure that most of the people in this thread who are saying anything resembling 'deal with it' are just saying that there simply is no very good solution for the problem of transgenders' bodies. It's trivially true that they have to deal with it because it's a fact. It only gets insulting when someone takes this that one step further and says they want to call someone on the fact they still don't have a vagina. Seems to me that'd be like meeting a marathon runner on two prosthetic limbs and saying 'well, you're running pretty well, mate, but you don't REALLY have legs, do ya, huh?' Like he doesn't know that!

Or telling them they aren't allowed in the race because they have prosthetic legs.

 

[Lithrael]

I don't see how one could design such a study. The only people who get a sex change are the people who are thought to benefit from it most, so that's already a highly biased sample. And you can't give some of them a double blind placebo sex change.

I think he means studies on the outcomes as far as happiness and well being in general, rather than studies on satisfaction levels about how the nuts and bolts of it turned out.

Or telling them they aren't allowed in the race because they have prosthetic legs.

Yeah, that kind of thing too.

This is close to meaningless in the context of whether people should learn to live with their bodies as they are, or try to change them to fit their minds.

It's meaningful because in this case the exact image in the mind is unattainable. I think what's he's talking about is the fact that you can only get so close to the ideal. If you can get close enough that you are now happy, then you are dealing with it. If you can't get close at all but you can find a way to come to peace with that, then you are dealing with it.

That is to say, it's not change OR don't change. Even when someone does change their body, they are not just up and getting what they want. They are getting something closer to what they want. I think Merko is saying what's important is being able to accept whatever that is at the end of the day.

 

[Merko]

I don't see how one could design such a study. The only people who get a sex change are the people who are thought to benefit from it most, so that's already a highly biased sample. And you can't give some of them a double blind placebo sex change.

What I would want to see (and if anyone knows of such studies, PLEASE tell me!) is the following. You take a group who is seeking professional counseling for gender identity disorders. You give these people a self-evaluation test to determine their subjective quality of life. Such tests are well developed for general purposes.

Some of these people undergo various levels of physical treatment: hormones and/or surgery. To this group, the self-evaluation test is again given at various stages after the procedure. Significant effort is made to make sure that response rates are high, and a follow-up of people who still can't be reached is done to ensure that there is not an alarming rate of suicide etc.

Then, the simple question is this: what percentage of those who actually underwent physical treatment subjectively report an improved quality of life? What percentage report a decreased quality of life?

 

[Lithrael]

I would also like to say to the people who keep calling various posters bigots: please stop it. This is new to a lot of people, counterintuitive to a lot more, and it's not their fault. A stupid question does not make you a hateful bigot. If some backwards white guy in 1875 asked if a black person could really feel and do anything a white person could, it would have been a lot more productive to answer his question than to call him a bigot. The word does not imply mere ignorance.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Gender issues examined from an "animal" perspective is a sign of how very ignorant you are on this topic. Animals do not have gender, they lack the self awareness and consciousness to be able to self identify as either male or female.


Seems to me you are confusing sexuality with gender. This is the first sign that someone hasn't done their research.

This statement makes you seem oblivious to the intelligence of other animals. Btw, humans are in fact animals. Let's get that straight. Secondly, elephants, apes, and cetaceans (whales, dolphins, and porpoises) all show signs of intelligence, consciousness, and self-awareness. I suggest you revise your statement and go double check. I also made the comparison between human behavior and animals. No I'm not confusing sexuality with gender. I've stated that most mammals have displayed a natural tendency towards homosexuality, it exists it can be quantified in the animal kingdom beyond the human species. In fact some mammals have a greater propensity towards homosexuality than humans. However, none (as far as I know) have displayed the desire to change their genders, and the fact that you think animals have no consciousness or self-awareness at all suggests that you also have not done your research.


Unlike stereolab I'm not going to sit here and allow you to straw my comments. Nor will I allow this conversation to devolve into one of those, "but they are animals" arguments. Because animals and man are equal. Man came from animals. And while mankind has the uncanny ability to reason, we also have natural urges that must be satisfied like most other animals. There are many things we can learn about human nature from animals. Many of our recent medical breakthroughs are because of animals. So to use blanket terminology like "they are just animals" shows a lack of depth and understanding of the subject. The same accusation you pin against me when I am still more than a little bit skeptical of the topic at hand.


Like I have said before, there is scientific evidence that suggests complex social creatures like chimpanzees (our closet living relatives) have a diverse range of sexual tendencies and behaviors. Homosexual, submissive (by males), and dominate (by females) traits have all been witnessed and studied. However, I’ve yet to see anything that conclusively suggests that members of other orders of the mammalian family tree have an innate inclination for trying to change their genders. In fact there is no evidence to suggest that any other mammals have any desire to change their genders beyond gender role reversal. Not dissimilar to our human concept of transvestites. There are several cases in nature that support the notion that those in the animal kingdom can be homosexual, play the roles of their opposite gender, and have a natural affinity for their own gender. However, there is no evidence to suggest even the most intelligent creatures (such as elephants or whales) have any disposition whatsoever to change their gender.

Like I've said before, this is a topic to be continued. There is much studying that needs to be done. I will study into the situation, but I still have a plethora of questions about even the brain studies I saw. How do we not know this isn't a predisposition with other self-image problems? We haven't even taken a look, and the fact that the other side is so scared to take a look suggests that there might be something there. We need to investigate all possibilities before discounting anyone of them.

 

[JWideman]

My how fast a thread grows when it's on a topic that makes people uncomfortable. Anyway...
Being born with or without a penis isn't an inherited genetic trait, and making such a comparison is absurd.

 

[Merko]

At present, I don't think there's a known "cause" of gender variance (and there could be several different causes that affect people in different stages in life), but its helpful to know that the latest transgender brain studies indicate that tg people have brain structures which closely resemble their target gender.

Have they tried that blindly? Eg, give a researcher an anonymous brain scan and then ask them to assign a gender to the brain.

Not sure how this knowledge could be used for anything practical though, but it would be interesting. I guess you could make the 'brain test' to see if a patient with gender disorder is 'correct' about their conviction, but what if the brain scan suggests they are not, and they are still personally convinced that they want to belong to the other gender?

 

[Matthew Best]

The victim expresses remorse -- I don't buy it.

Me neither - and I think calling her a "victim" is taking dissatisfaction with the justice system too far.

 

[Alt+F4]

White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. Looks like FtM subjects were self-selected through an advertisement, evaluated by a psychiatrist and psychologist to determine whether they meet the diagnostic criteria for transexualism according to DSM-IV-TR and ICD-10 manuals.

Thanks for the link. Actually it was the control group that was found through an advertisement. The subjects were "18 untreated FtM transsexuals from the Gender Identity Unit at the Hospital Clinic of Barcelona". In addition:

All patients were not hormonally treated, and meet the eligibility

and readiness criteria for hormone therapy according the

Standards of Care of the Harry Benjamin Gender Dysphoria Association.

The eligibility and readiness criteria call for a period of psychotherapy so I would not consider these folks "untreated". They were being treated, but not yet with hormones. So how do we know what was found in the MRI wasn't caused by the treatment?

Now I'm not saying that trans people don't have brain structures which closely resemble their target gender. I'm saying that neither of these studies proves it.