Being transgender is hard

[Matthew Best]

The OP said that they had found that all but one Endocrinologist was willing to treat, the OP didn't say that they were currently treating.

Still, it's good news that so many endocrinologists were willing to treat, isn't it? What reason did the one hold-out give?

 

[L.Y.S.]

I've yet to see a study about the transgender issue. I'm still quite skeptical, not to sound ignorant or inconsiderate even, how do we not know if it’s a mental condition or not? People want to be other things all the time. Some people want to be white and are born black. Does our society begin to ethically justify how individuals of another race can become the other? Some people might want to be superman, does that mean the world bends over and creates artificial super powers to supplicate this person's desires? I'm not opposed to the idea that individuals can desire to be another gender, but it does present some ethical challenges to our society. Denying this could be a lack of perspective on the other party's part. I am reserving judgment on this issue. There needs to be decades more research before society can make any logical and well-informed decision .

 

[Dessi]

I've yet to see a study about the transgender issue. I'm still quite skeptical, not to sound ignorant or inconsiderate even, how do we not know if it’s a mental condition or not?

What claims make you skeptical, and what sort of research are you looking for?

In any case, transgender people have been studied for decades, there are 1000s of studies which are easily accessible in a quick google search. At present, I don't think there's a known "cause" of gender variance (and there could be several different causes that affect people in different stages in life), but its helpful to know that the latest transgender brain studies indicate that tg people have brain structures which closely resemble their target gender.

 

[Earthborn]

I'm still quite skeptical, not to sound ignorant or inconsiderate even, how do we not know if it’s a mental condition or not?

We know that because not having a mental condition that explains it is one of its diagnostic criteria.

Some people want to be white and are born black. Does our society begin to ethically justify how individuals of another race can become the other?

I sure hope society does not make such a big deal out of race that black individuals have any problem being accepted when they act like whites.

Some people might want to be superman, does that mean the world bends over and creates artificial super powers to supplicate this person's desires?

If such a thing was possible, how many people would be opposed to it compared to how many would sign up for it?

There needs to be decades more research before society can make any logical and well-informed decision .

There have already been many decades of research, and you managed not to inform yourself of any of it. Do you think you would start to read up on it in a few decades, when there will be even more research?

 

[L.Y.S.]

I sure hope society does not make such a big deal out of race that black individuals have any problem being accepted when they act like whites.

Wrong assumption on your part. Who said act like whites? I said literally they want to be white. That means they wish to go through surgical procedures, bleach their skin, have nose surgery, and the like to become white. There seriously are a few blacks who have the desire to become white. I'm not saying it's wrong to "act white" (whatever that means), but is it ethical to allow these individuals to completely change their race, simply because they feel white?

There have already been many decades of research, and you managed not to inform yourself of any of it. Do you think you would start to read up on it in a few decades, when there will be even more research?

Maybe in another 50 years after a century or more worth of research has been done and brain science catches up.

 

[Alt+F4]

...but its helpful to know that the latest transgender brain studies indicate that tg people have brain structures which closely resemble their target gender.

Do you have a link to the entire study, because that link presents a lot of questions. In the first study, "the brains of 18 female-to-male transsexual people who'd had no treatment" were MRIed. If these folks had no treatment how did the scientists determine they were actually trans and not just cross-dressers?

In the second study, it was 18 male-to-female transsexual people's brains that were MRIed. No mention of no treatment in this group so if we assume that these folks were on hormone therapy how do we know what effect that has on the brain?

 

[wasapi]

A few years ago my closest friend, a retired proffesor, underwent reassignment surgery. Though Robin* had an ex-wife and two teenage sons who were wonderfully supportive, the real issue to face was being diagnosed with MS. The MS was rapid in deterioration and life in a wheelchair became more and more difficult. I helped as much as possible, but a part-time nurse was finally called in.

It suprised me that the surgeon finally agreed to the surgery, but after a long time and many other proceedures, just less invasive, had been preformed, as well as several interviews with other doctor's and with shrinks (which had been Robin's doctorate,) the surgeon agreed.

Robin and I spent many hours discussing the threat to the already advancing MS and what a dangerous risk the surgery would be. The discussions always ended the same. I was told that even if the surgery proved fatal, at least he would be in the female body that he had felt from the age 4 he was meant to be in.

It was that important. And, as much as I feared the likely out come, I gave my support 100%.

The surgery weakened the heart. About 3 months after coming home from the proceedure, I recieved a call. The first call had been to 911. Then to me. I could hear the phone drop before silence on the other end. I knew.

I guess I bring this up because of the post suggesting transgender people aren't as happy as others. After many years of being friends with Robin, those final 3 months were, without question, the happiest. While I miss my friend more then I can say, it helps some to remember and honor the decision made, and knowing that Robin died in the body that had been so longed for since childhood.

 

[Rolfe]

I can't help remember Ashley tell me that once she'd started the procedure to change over, or even just been accepted into the programme, she was able to sleep peacefully for the first time she could remember.

Rolfe.

 

[Alt+F4]

There seriously are a few blacks who have the desire to become white.

I'm not discounting your point in general but do you have evidence of even one black person who has said they believe they were born the wrong race and should have been born white?

P.S. - Michael Jackson doesn't count.

 

[L.Y.S.]

I'm not discounting your point in general but do you have evidence of even one black person who has said they believe they were born the wrong race and should have been born white?

P.S. - Michael Jackson doesn't count.

Thanks to Tyra Banks we now have an entire special of self-loathing black people who wish to be white. This is just one case I can think of.

 

[Merko]

Of course, I support everyone's right to do whatever they please with their own bodies.

However, I can't really get myself to consider surgical or hormonal 'sex change' treatments sensible or advisable.

I can very well understand if someone does not want to follow the 'expected' dress code of his or her gender. Or if someone does not want to follow 'expected' gender behaviour. This is something I support politically and also instinctively. I'm not saying all gender 'roles' are absolute social evils, but it's good for everyone if this stuff becomes more optional.

However, when it comes to changing a perfectly functional body, this appears to me to fall in the same category as an anorectic woman removing some ribs to become unnaturally thin, or a man operating himself to get a gigantic penis because he somehow believes this is necessary for his self-esteem. The way I see it, it is not the body that is the problem.

I know there are studies suggesting that sex-change operations improve the well-being of patients. I'm a bit doubtful of these studies, because they all seem to have a very low response rate. If the people responding claim to have had their lives improved, that does not tell us that much, because there may be a very strong correlation between responding to the survey, and having had a positive change. Also, because it's a 'sunk cost' situation, self-evaluation after the fact is not a good measure. Rather, I would like to see a study where patients' well-being is first evaluated before treatment, and then re-evaluated with identical questions after the treatment, with serious efforts made to get a response from all patients.

The way I see it, we may be happy or unhappy with our bodies, but we are what we are. If we do not like our bodies, the solution must be to get ourselves to reconcile ourselves with them anyway, not to make attempts at surgically altering the bodies to somewhat better suit our wishes. If we want to engage in fantasies that we belong to the opposite sex, that is fine. If we want to involve others in that fantasy, that is also fine. I have no problem with that and I do not consider it wrong or pathological or anything. I respect that, absolutely. But I really doubt surgery or hormonal treatment is a solution.

Of course, this does not in any way excuse or mitigate the very widespread and serious persecution against transgender people. Such hatred seems to stem from people being themselves extremely unsure of their own sexuality, having a morbid fear of being 'fooled' by a person's gender appearance. Clearly, if one finds a person attractive, it could not reasonably matter one bit if that person has undergone a sex change operation, or has an appearance not typical of his or her genetic sex, or is dressing contrary to social norms. I consider myself heterosexual, but if one day I found myself romantically involved with someone who turned out to be equipped with a penis, or who was born with one, I'd simply draw the conclusion that I'm actually bisexual. The idea that the shape of someone's genitals should somehow be relevant in a situation where sexual attraction is already a fact, is beyond me.

However, I certainly understand that spouses of people undergoing a sex change operation are often not accepting. I do not believe I would be. Perhaps in the end I might tolerate it, perhaps not. I'm sure I would not be 'estranged' from a spouse for this reason, but I would expect it to probably lead to separation.

 

[Alt+F4]

Thanks to Tyra Banks we now have an entire special of self-loathing black people who wish to be white. This is just one case I can think of.

Well you are right, you found a black man who believes he should have been a white man....and on Tyra! He came off to me not so much wanting white skin but wanting his perception white privilege.

 

[Dessi]

Do you have a link to the entire study, because that link presents a lot of questions. In the first study, "the brains of 18 female-to-male transsexual people who'd had no treatment" were MRIed. If these folks had no treatment how did the scientists determine they were actually trans and not just cross-dressers?

White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. Looks like FtM subjects were self-selected through an advertisement, evaluated by a psychiatrist and psychologist to determine whether they meet the diagnostic criteria for transexualism according to DSM-IV-TR and ICD-10 manuals.

In the second study, it was 18 male-to-female transsexual people's brains that were MRIed. No mention of no treatment in this group so if we assume that these folks were on hormone therapy how do we know what effect that has on the brain?

The microstructure of white matter in male to female transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. Subjects were selected in the same manner as above. The study comments that some parts of the brain are partially feminized / incompletely masculinized, so just like you mentioned, comparisons to post-HRT subjects are needed.

 

[L.Y.S.]

Well you are right, you found a black man who believes he should have been a white man....and on Tyra! He came off to me not so much wanting white skin but wanting his perception white privilege.

I know Alt+F4 work with me here. There have been other racial self-image studies done, the most famous of which were about black children and their self-image issues. Clearly it could be argued the same way for people desiring to be another race. Can we have another racial category on our exams, are you transracial? But the case and point is that several blacks do wish to be white.

Do we as a society allow these individuals to pursue their goals in order to get themselves into racial alignment? You know, to make themselves look more like the race they feel they ought to be. When I heard the man speak on Tyra, I did hear a lot of the privilege issues you mentioned, but I also heard the anatomical dysmorphia he mentioned, not dissimilar to the transgendered argument. He argued he was ugly, he hated how he looks, he hated how being black felt, etc. How can we be certain that similar things don’t cause gender image issues?

 

[Merko]

I want to clarify one thing. I do not in any way doubt, nor do I want to pathologize, people who feel that they belong to a different gender than their body suggests. If people are biologically male and want to behave like females stereotypically do, and they prefer being treated like females, then this is something I'm very accepting of.

However, what I do call into question, is the connection between the preferred gender role and using surgical and/or hormonal treatment for bodily changes. Of course if an adult person really is convinced, it's a free society and it should not be banned. But should it be encouraged? I am not convinced of that.

I am aware that this is not done lightly. People are informed that in the best case, they will sometimes get some people to instinctively consider them to belong to their preferred gender, but not everyone all of the time. And if being considered as the preferred gender is the goal, it is not just people reacting disrespectfully that is a problem, then you really want/need people to instinctively and truly see you as your preferred gender, not just agree to pretend.

So, when I think that this is a psychological issue, that does emphatically not mean 'get real and start behaving like the man you are'. Behave like a woman, behave like a man, behave like neither. Prefer people to treat you like a man, or a woman - but learn to live with the fact that your physical body is what it is, and you cannot ever hope to have everyone treat you like you would prefer.

To exemplify: some transgender people consider it extremely important to be classified according to their preferred gender in public documents. Of course this is only a very small part of being transgender, but it is a situation that everyone can relate to.

Assume that for whatever reason, authorities decided to classify me as a woman. Would I appeal that decision? Sure. Would I spend months or years fighting it? Certainly not. In the end, it is not really important. Presumably the biggest consequence would be that I'd be notified for having a mammogram.

 

[Dessi]

Of course, I support everyone's right to do whatever they please with their own bodies.

However, I can't really get myself to consider surgical or hormonal 'sex change' treatments sensible or advisable.

I can very well understand if someone does not want to follow the 'expected' dress code of his or her gender. Or if someone does not want to follow 'expected' gender behaviour. This is something I support politically and also instinctively. I'm not saying all gender 'roles' are absolute social evils, but it's good for everyone if this stuff becomes more optional.

Should be noted that transsexual people do not generally challenge gender norms, they typically want to integrate into target gender, so take steps to dress and behave in manner consistent with cultural norms.

Crossdressers on the other hand typically have a gender-identity which aligns with their biological sex, they typically have a gender expression which challenges cultural norms.

And since I'm already writing about it, some people have an kind of mixed gender expression. Two who come to mind are Zinnia Jones, atheist and lgbt activist, she self-identifies as a gay woman (if she's a vegetarian, I may have to steal her away <3). Andrej Pejic is the "prettiest boy in the world", self-identifies as androgynous but almost always addressed by masculine pronouns.

However, when it comes to changing a perfectly functional body, this appears to me to fall in the same category as an anorectic woman removing some ribs to become unnaturally thin, or a man operating himself to get a gigantic penis because he somehow believes this is necessary for his self-esteem. The way I see it, it is not the body that is the problem.

This is anorexia.

Here are some images of successfully transitioned women, collected from a 15 minute search of youtube:

candifla, has a vlog on voice training. She 39 or 40, most of us wish we could look that good, she's also notable for being a late transitioner:


Trista, striking transition, have a look at her videos from a year ago, like night and day:


Transgender documentary:


Lain, hyperactive tg vlogger:


Natasha, Russian transwoman in her early 20s or so, does make better than I can:


Debra, transgender computer programmer for the awesomes:


Lea, tg vlogger:


Kate, another vlogger, also prettier than me (booooooooo):


Fior, piccies of her transition, also prettier than me (double boooooooo):


Vanna, her first 8 months on hormones:


Glenny, such an unbelievably happy person in this video, began her transition in 1999 at the age of 19:


Which of these women appear to have harmed themselves in any way, shape or form comparable to anorexics? What advantage would there be for any of them to detransition?

While some t-girls don't pass very well (and pretty much every t-guy I've ever seen passes amazingly well), many do and are well-integrated into their target gender.

 

[Alt+F4]

Here are some images of successfully transitioned women, collected from a 15 minute search of youtube.

Well it depends on what your definition of a "successful transition" is. Is it based on make-up, long hair and high heels? These women don't look like most women do on a daily basis. Being a woman isn't about being what advertising thinks a woman should look like. Being a woman isn't about being "pretty".

 

[Merko]

Which of these women appear to have harmed themselves in any way, shape or form comparable to anorexics? What advantage would there be for any of them to detransition?

I'm not advocating that they should detransition, and I am not suggesting that they have harmed themselves. I'm not advocating a ban on sex-change operations.

I think you are missing my point with the comparison to anorectics and my other example which was a man operating himself to get a gigantic penis. An anorectic removing some ribs will indeed appear to be slimmer, and may not be 'worse off' because of that procedure. A man with a new gigantic penis may be physically healthy in every respect. And maybe both of these persons would even feel somewhat better compared to before the operations.

No, my point is that these people are not really treating the problem, and I'm doubtful that the surgical operations will truly help them. The anorectic would probably still be unhappy, and the man would still be unsure of himself. If the operation helps somewhat, then that is great. But the true challenge which can really make them feel better is for them to learn to accept their bodies as they are, with limitations and all.

People who have psychological issues always want it to be physical. People who are tired, who feel pain, who are depressed.. they do not want a psychological diagnosis. They want to be told that it is a physical problem. There is a lot of stigma on psychological problems.

While some t-girls don't pass very well (and pretty much every t-guy I've ever seen passes amazingly well), many do and are well-integrated into their target gender.

I think there is a big difference between 'I can see that this person prefers to be seen as a woman' and 'I feel that this person is biologically a woman', and then 'I feel that this is an attractive woman'. Note that non-attractive does not mean ugly. I do not find most transgender women ugly but that does not mean I find them attractive either, they are just in the group of non-attractive people that includes men, most women, and children. I suppose that many if not most transgender women are lesbians so I'm not suggesting that my opinion would be of any consequence at all. However, if attraction is not a factor in general, then why would anyone care about the outward perception of gender?

 

[Dessi]

Well it depends on what your definition of a "successful transition" is. Is it based on make-up, long hair and high heels? These women don't look like most women do on a daily basis. Being a woman isn't about being what advertising thinks a woman should look like. Being a woman isn't about being "pretty".

I'd say a person is successfully transitioned if they feel they are. I can't speak for them, but I think for a lot of tg women, passing well has a big impact on those feelings.

I think all the women in the videos above have a culturally normal gender expression, but some don't. Julia Serrano describes herself as a butch lesbian. (Youtube is being stingy and I can't find many videos of other butch t-girls, but some piccies turned up on google image search.)

 

[Toke]

I know the Swedish have a movement with gender neutral kindergartens, somehow I doubt it will play out as expected. On the bright side it will likely provide useful data on the importance of culture vs. brainstructure in gender identity.

It sounds like a good idea to give hormone treatment before puberty start developing the "wrong" body. The only problem is how early you can tell that you really have a tg?