Being a racist while having a soft skull

[Thermal]

But that's what I'm talking about: the right-wing and racists always assume that everything is equal for blacks and whites, and that any attempt to address racism is either condescending to black people or is preventing them from enjoying their freedoms. And that's the REAL racism!

The right wing and racists can say whatever they please. They may sometimes adopt a valid argument to serve their ends, too. What does that have to do with my post?

I pointed out that ST made a ridiculously hyperbolic claim that a 27 yr old black man would have to be 'superhuman' to not be afraid of his geriatric customer. I find it ludicrous that a black man, or any man, could not be reasonably assumed to be composed in the face of a grumpy old man bitching about donut service.

But you are trying to hang a right wing /racist angle on that. Y U do dis? Do you agree with ST that a black man would have to be superhuman? Or were you just trying to subtlety imply that I was a racist?

...Because I think black men would have the same kind of courage that you or I might...

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Any reason you didn’t provide a link to the actual posts?

They don't want people to know how cool I am. Stolen valor!

 

[Belz...]

The right wing and racists can say whatever they please. They may sometimes adopt a valid argument to serve their ends, too. What does that have to do with my post?

I just want you to know what impression your posts may leave other people with when you use the same arguments than racists use. Do with that what you will.

I pointed out that ST made a ridiculously hyperbolic claim that a 27 yr old black man would have to be 'superhuman' to not be afraid of his geriatric customer.

He didn't say that.

He said that YOUR version of the events make the black man impossibly cool and collected.

I find it ludicrous that a black man, or any man, could not be reasonably assumed to be composed in the face of a grumpy old man bitching about donut service.

Are you white? The way I understand it, white people in the US don't have to face racism almost daily. Your reaction to seeing this sort of abuse might be different in part because of different experience with racism. This doesn't excuse the punching, but it puts it in perspective.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

The right wing and racists can say whatever they please. They may sometimes adopt a valid argument to serve their ends, too. What does that have to do with my post?

I pointed out that ST made a ridiculously hyperbolic claim that a 27 yr old black man would have to be 'superhuman' to not be afraid of his geriatric customer. I find it ludicrous that a black man, or any man, could not be reasonably assumed to be composed in the face of a grumpy old man bitching about donut service.

But you are trying to hang a right wing /racist angle on that. Y U do dis? Do you agree with ST that a black man would have to be superhuman? Or were you just trying to subtlety imply that I was a racist?

...Because I think black men would have the same kind of courage that you or I might...

Thermal seems to believe fear and indifference are the only two types of human emotional response to adversity.

Anger is a very common, and often appropriate, response to injustice.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I think several were concerned enough to call it cold, calculated, and murder.

I believe that Thermal has couched it as "cold calculated punching", but I don't believe anyone in this thread thinks the puncher intended to kill the guy.

Your perception may vary, but I really don't think anyone is "concerned" about the old man. Many, including me, think that his death was unjustified, and that the actions of the puncher were inappropriate and should be condemned. That doesn't imply that anyone at all thinks that the old man was behaving acceptably at all. Nor that any of us actually has any emotional investment in the old man's death.

Some of us do have an emotional investment in 1) the behavior and comportment of posters on ISF and 2) the increasing social acceptance and advocacy for violence as an acceptable response to speech.

 

[Belz...]

Your perception may vary, but I really don't think anyone is "concerned" about the old man. Many, including me, think that his death was unjustified, and that the actions of the puncher were inappropriate and should be condemned.

I think they generally were condemned. And why would you condemn something if you're not concerned at least a little?

Some of us do have an emotional investment in 1) the behavior and comportment of posters on ISF and 2) the increasing social acceptance and advocacy for violence as an acceptable response to speech.

"Some of us" meaning not me, right? Very slick.

Yeah, acceptance of violence is not great, but so far in this thread that's not what happened.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I suppose I should have put this in the cancel culture thread, because our friend's vital function got canceled.

Hyuck hyuck hyuck, tip your bartenders folks!

 

[Belz...]

You're not helping me, man.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

You're not helping me, man.

I think if I get them clutching these pearls any tighter we might discover cold fusion.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I just want you to know what impression your posts may leave other people with when you use the same arguments than racists use.

I'm sorry, Belz, but that's a dumb rejoinder. I've seen the same argumentative approach used by many posters on this board, in many different scenarios. Sometimes it's appropriate, sometimes it isn't. Just because a racist said a thing doesn't make the approach void of utility. It certainly doesn't lend itself to an absurd attempt to tarnish by association. We already get more than enough of that fallacy on here as it is - don't add to it.

 

[Thermal]

Did I? I must have had a seizure because I have no recollection of such a claim. I humbly suggested that black people are human beings that experience normal human emotions to stressful situations, rather than being hyper-cool operators.

Notice that the word "literally" has been used once again to mean "not literally".

No, you didn't, Suburban Turkey. You said, obviously referring to this thread and Jogger:

I see Thermal's impossibly collected, calculating black man has made an appearance again. Yes, just like Arbery was "toying" with the men trying to run him down in their trucks, this guy surely was calmly analyzing the situation and meticulously planning how to respond to being confronted by a belligerent racist.

It's curious you seem to assume that black people react to stressful situations with unusual, even superhuman, presence of mind.

Twice, I give black men the credibility that they might not be cowed by a white man, and you try to spin it to claiming superhuman prowess.

Since we are not on the Jogger thread, the floor is still yours to describe how Pujols displayed superhuman presence of mind. Those Dodgers are scary to a black man, right? No way could he have been confident in the face of this geriatric menace, right? Impossible, yes?

 

[Thermal]

I believe that Thermal has couched it as "cold calculated punching"...<respectful snip to nitpick>

I said cool and collected, referring to police saying he asked old guy to repeat what he said. Others are changing that to cold and calculated. Cuz it sounds more damning, right?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I think they generally were condemned. And why would you condemn something if you're not concerned at least a little?

I can be concerned with a pattern of behavior, and its consequences on social norms, without caring one whit about a single person affected by it. It's the same as in the "Cancel Culture" thread. There are a great many people who have been "cancelled" that I don't care about, and some that I even think got their just deserts in a conceptual fashion. But those few cases where I think the outcome was acceptable doesn't lead me to think that the pattern of behavior involved in mob justice and extrajudicial social punishment is acceptable. Even if the occasional outcome is 'good', the approach is still 'bad' and presents far more danger across the board if normalized.

In this case, I am not concerned about some old guy. Seriously, I don't know him, and I truly don't give a **** about complete strangers on the other side of the country. I disapprove of the actions taken by the puncher - I do not support violence except in direct defense, which this was not.

What concerns me in this thread, and on the internet in general, and in to broader world as a whole... is that this action is viewed by many people as acceptable, excusable, or even laudable.

"Some of us" meaning not me, right? Very slick.

Well, no, not exactly. I mean, you're not arguing that side of it at the moment, but I also don't think you generally fall into the pattern of applauding violence. More, it's a case of me not wanting to go back through the thread and figure out the names of the people who I perceive to be making the same argument I am. I just went through the whole thread, I don't wanna do it again

Yeah, acceptance of violence is not great, but so far in this thread that's not what happened.

Perceptions vary. I perceive that some posters are perfectly fine with violence in response to words when it suits their ideological ends.

 

[Thermal]

Thermal seems to believe fear and indifference are the only two types of human emotional response to adversity.

Anger is a very common, and often appropriate, response to injustice.

False dichotomy. I never, ever limited to two responses.

You're better than this, man. Others aren't, but you are.

 

[Lithrael]

I don’t understand why Thermal is responding to posts that suppose it could be easily understandable if the young man unfortunately lost his temper, in a way that suggests anyone besides him is talking in terms of the guy being afraid of the old man.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm still confused. Why haven't we determined how fast the old man could run? Why isn't that important this time?

I'm not seeing any tactical analysis being run on the dead white racist. I'm not seeing any alternative universe... *clears my throat dramatically* fan fiction being written about all the things the white racist might have done. Nobody is pointing out how vitally important it is that we all acknowledge that the white racist "wasn't no angel."

Funny... that. I wonder what the one and only difference is.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I'm still confused. Why haven't we determined how fast the old man could run? Why isn't that important this time?

I'm not seeing any tactical analysis being run on the dead white racist. I'm not seeing any alternative universe... *clears my throat dramatically* fan fiction being written about all the things the white racist might have done. Nobody is pointing out how vitally important it is that we all acknowledge that the white racist "wasn't no angel."

Funny... that. I wonder what the one and only difference is.

Strange considering he was almost certainly the aggressor.

They started arguing in the drive through line and the racist parked his car and went charging into the lobby to continue his tirade, face to face.

Not saying there is necessarily enough evidence to justify a self defense claim, but let's not play dumb here. The racist guy, soon to get his dome cracked, escalated this situation. I'd say he did about 75% of the work in getting himself killed, and just happened to bully someone willing to help him with the remaining 25%

 

[Thermal]

I just want you to know what impression your posts may leave other people with when you use the same arguments than racists use. Do with that what you will.

Sidebar: Yes, I'm aware that my habit of vocally arguing counter-narrative gives the wrong impression to some. That says heaps more about their simplistic, binary thinking than it does about me. /OT

He didn't say that.

He said that YOUR version of the events make the black man impossibly cool and collected.

Yes. And it stands for him to defend that characterization. What is 'impossible' about Pujols being calm in the face of the geezer?

Are you white?

Depends on who you ask, but yes I generally am.

The way I understand it, white people in the US don't have to face racism almost daily. Your reaction to seeing this sort of abuse might be different in part because of different experience with racism. This doesn't excuse the punching, but it puts it in perspective.

You understand incorrectly. In my beloved NJ, you might never hear the n-word muttered by a white guy, but I welcome you to go to the neighborhoods I frequent and not hear "mother ******* white ass cracker' half a dozen times directed at you. And worse. These are places where yo white ass would be solidly in the minority, btw. No physical safety offered.

That's my weekly reality. Do you get that it sounds odd for people from other countries telling me about how things are in my backyard is a little...off putting?

Racism is real (white on black, I mean). But it's not always the comic book simplicity portrayed in these threads. Black guys are sometimes big and bold, like anyone else. Do you get why that might piss a brother off, to assert they must be scared? They're just like you and me.

 

[Thermal]

I'm still confused. Why haven't we determined how fast the old man could run? Why isn't that important this time?

I'm not seeing any tactical analysis being run on the dead white racist. I'm not seeing any alternative universe... *clears my throat dramatically* fan fiction being written about all the things the white racist might have done. Nobody is pointing out how vitally important it is that we all acknowledge that the white racist "wasn't no angel."

Funny... that. I wonder what the one and only difference is.

To address this painfully stupid comment seriously:

Because on Arbery, and Guyger, and some others, we had a ton of information to work with. Here, we have next to nothing.

And you are not so stupid as to not be able to figure that out. Knock off the act.

 

[Lithrael]

Knock off the act.

As opposed to your constant, bizarre insinuation that anyone has suggested fear as the emotional state the young man might have been moved to?