:-( Beijing Olympics -- A Lot of Unhappy People

[Skeptic Guy]

Wolfman,

This point is concerning to me. In your postings on the Globe and Mail site, you weren't trying to sugar coat or revise the Tienanmen massacre were you?

10) I would like to add one further point, about something that you posted on the Globe and Mail website. You criticized me for my description of the 1989 massacre of the Tiananmen students. Your specific complaint is that I wrote that "hundreds and perhaps thousands" of people were killed by the Chinese military in June 1989. You said that "nobody" has ever supported an estimate of "thousands" of people killed. In reality, of course, the estimated death tolls by a variety of well-respected sources have ranged from several hundred to several thousand. The Chinese Red Cross, on the day of the massacre, estimated that 2,600 people were killed. Jan Wong, an eyewitness to the massacre, concluded -- after much research over a period of many years -- that about 3,000 people were killed in June 1989. See her book, Red China Blues, p. 278.

 

[Skeptic Guy]

Wolfman,

You have mentioned a very mixed bag of steps the Chinese Gov't is taking, some good, some bad and a few at both extremes. Overall though, before the start of the games will this likely end as a positive gain for the people of China, a loss of previous gains or will life return to the status quo before the changes implemented because of the Olympics?


As an aside, it would be interesting to see some of the "black" athletes from around the world going out and trying to eat in the restaurants away from the Olympic Village.



Boo

And it would be even more interesting for an international news agency to follow those atheletes around Beijing while trying to do so. In fact, I have a number of friends in such organizations and will email them to ask if they are planning to cover that side of the news.

 

[Wolfman]

Wolfman,

This point is concerning to me. In your postings on the Globe and Mail site, you weren't trying to sugar coat or revise the Tienanmen massacre were you?

Not at all. Although no exact count is possible, I fully believe that quite likely hundreds of people died at Tiananmen Square. But not thousands...a figure that Geoffrey York has used very frequently in numerous reports about China. The only sources that he's able to cite are A) a report that was made on the day of the massacre, in the midst of massive confusion (and a report that was later revised by the same organization that made the initial report), and a single author who was not even present at the event in question.

By contrast, as I mention in my reply, I personally know several people who were there, and one whose brother was killed that day. Not a single one of them comes even close to "thousands" of people killed. And if you want to argue that perhaps they are afraid of the government, then how about Chinese dissidents from the Tiananmen Square protests who have since left China, and now live in Canada, and the U.S. Surely, if thousands of people had been killed that day, they would be the first ones to declare that...yet to my knowledge, not a single one of them makes such a claim.

And if you check out any of the numerous human rights groups that address the Tiananmen Square Massacre, you will likewise find that they pretty much universally put the numbers in the hundreds. These are people who are pretty strongly anti-Chinese...yet even they don't claim it was "thousands" of people killed.

 

[Wolfman]

Wolfman,

You have mentioned a very mixed bag of steps the Chinese Gov't is taking, some good, some bad and a few at both extremes. Overall though, before the start of the games will this likely end as a positive gain for the people of China, a loss of previous gains or will life return to the status quo before the changes implemented because of the Olympics?

I would hesitate to make any predictions at all, simply because so much depends on what happens during the Games.

Take a worst-case scenario: someone actually does make a terrorist attack (or multiple attacks) at the Games. The gov't responds in the only way it knows how...with massive overreaction, sending in the military, and giving hardliners and excuse to seize even more power within the government.

Or a best-case scenario: the Games go off relatively smoothly, and the increased international attention puts more pressure on China for continued positive change (they are, after all, hosting the World Expo in Shanghai in 2010). Increase tourism and business fosters continued economic growth in China, which in turn fosters education and a middle class that has ever increasing economic power. That, in turn, drives a process of change that leads to the continuing democratization of China.

Or...it could be anywhere in between.

 

[The Painter]

I fully believe that quite likely hundreds of people died at Tiananmen Square. But not thousands

Oh, well I guess that makes it OK? It is so silly of people to complain about deaths in Tienanmen Square when it was only hundreds of people, not thousands, killed.

Wolfman, since you are the self proclaimed authority on China, what is the acceptable official government number of deaths per protest?

 

[Wolfman]

Oh, well I guess that makes it OK? It is so silly of people to complain about deaths in Tienanmen Square when it was only hundreds of people, not thousands, killed.

Wolfman, since you are the self proclaimed authority on China, what is the acceptable official government number of deaths per protest?

Edited by Darat: 

For Forum Spotlight

As Cleon states, at no time have I ever said that Tiananmen Square was acceptable, or excusable. Quite the opposite. Not only do I condemn it absolutely, but I have close friends here who lost family members there.

The discussion about this particular issue began in the Globe and Mail forums (a copy of which I have not posted here), in which I referred to Geoffrey York's tendency to include the sentence "Tiananmen Square, where hundreds or even thousands of people were killed in 1989". He has since corrected me in a subsequent email (our exchange continues, and is quite interesting), that while he used the expression a few times, apparently the other uses were by other journalists, not by him.

However, my point of disagreement with his was not that Tiananmen Square was in some way excusable, or acceptable. It was the fact that the Globe and Mail's articles about China tended to use this description regardless of what the article was about; and that the estimate of "thousands" of people killed at Tiananmen Square was not one widely supported by the vast majority of authorities on the massacre. It was a deliberately prejudicial sentence, inserted because the author knew the negative sentiments that its inclusion would immediately arouse. Since my bone of contention with Geoffrey York is that he presents a very deliberately biased perspective, this was relevant.

One of the issues that has come up in my exchange with Geoffrey is the ongoing use of Tiananmen Square in many articles about China. If we're going to talk about Tiananmen Square every time we mention China, then why do we not talk about the 22,000 Japanese who were interred during WW II in Canada, and had all their property illegally stolen from them, every time we talk about Canada?

Geoffrey's response was that the Japanese internments happened some 60 years ago, and were no longer relevant; whereas the events at Tiananmen Square happened 2 decades ago, and were still relevant.

I then replied that if we are going to apply time limits, then since China's invasion of Tibet was some 50 years ago, we should also stop mentioning that. Its old news, no longer relevant...if one accepts the premise that such things have pre-determined time limits.

My own argument is different. I argue that such things should be based on the current government's involvement in the issues being discussed. The current leaders in China had nothing to do with Tiananmen Square; nor have they engaged in any massacres of a similar nature. Criticize them for abuses that they are responsible for, yes. But constant and deliberate efforts to tar them with the imagery of 1989 are intellectually and morally dishonest.

By the same token, although the invasion of Tibet happened some 50 years ago, there are still specific abuses being acted upon the peoples of Tibet by the current government; and therefore, even though it happened 50 years ago, it is still a relevant issue, and it should be discussed in relation to the current government's actions and responsibilities.

 

[Boo]

Wolfman,

I understand your hesitation and reservations. I think I worded my question poorly in what I was asking.

Given the changes made, how likely is it that these changes will remain in effect after the games or will policies return to the status quo? Do you see the overall changes made as positive or negative in the life of the general population?

Much of what I've read seems to focus on the negatives and the restrictions being placed on anyone that might be considered a minority or outsider. There have also been the positives such as the new railways lines and the alternating traffic days that have seem to have alleviated much of the traffic congestion and possibly improved the local air quality. The security patrols seem a potential for both positive and negative depending on the level of paranoia and zealousness of those patrolling along with the response to information passed on by the patrols.




Boo

 

[Wolfman]

Wolfman,

I understand your hesitation and reservations. I think I worded my question poorly in what I was asking.

Given the changes made, how likely is it that these changes will remain in effect after the games or will policies return to the status quo? Do you see the overall changes made as positive or negative in the life of the general population?

Much of what I've read seems to focus on the negatives and the restrictions being placed on anyone that might be considered a minority or outsider. There have also been the positives such as the new railways lines and the alternating traffic days that have seem to have alleviated much of the traffic congestion and possibly improved the local air quality. The security patrols seem a potential for both positive and negative depending on the level of paranoia and zealousness of those patrolling along with the response to information passed on by the patrols.

Boo

Barring unforeseen events of a particularly dramatic nature -- such as terrorist attacks -- I believe that once the Games are over (and by this, I mean both the regular Olympics and the Paralympics...the regulations will stay in place until both events are concluded), things will pretty much return to 'normal'.

 

[Cleon]

Back on the topic of the Olympics, rather than Wolfman's unwillingness to simply dismiss and condemn everything related to the Chinese government, this story on CNN caught my eye.

 

[Beerina]

* A lot of the higher-class prostitutes in Beijing are Mongolian; so Mongolian women are being targeted and made to leave Beijing.

Edited by Darat: 

For Forum Spotlight

Are Mongolian women particularly hot for some reason? Or just kind of exotic, like the African woman's window had a small line outside it in Amsterdam's red light district?


It's true!

 

[Wolfman]

Are Mongolian women particularly hot for some reason? Or just kind of exotic, like the African woman's window had a small line outside it in Amsterdam's red light district?


It's true!

Its not so much that they're exotic. Its that they're trained extensively before coming to China. They speak excellent English (most Chinese prostitutes do not), they know lots of 'tricks' to make a man happy, etc.

And if you get caught, it is two 'foreigners'...which is treated much less seriously by the authorities than if a foreigner is doing it with a Chinese woman (which causes the entire nation of China to lose face, of course).

And no...I don't know this from personal experience. However, it is a frequent topic of discussion here.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I would hesitate to make any predictions at all, simply because so much depends on what happens during the Games.

Take a worst-case scenario: someone actually does make a terrorist attack (or multiple attacks) at the Games.

An unsophisticated group, Black September, pulled it off in 1972. Modern terrorist groups are varied in their level of sophistication, and the security measures to prevent their successful pulling of some stunt/slaughter certainly improve since Munich.

But the sordid fact is that "there is no security."

For the sake of people in Beijing, including an old high school buddy of mine, I hope no terrorist attack takes place. I am not optomistic.

DR

 

[BenBurch]

DR, I would more suspect attacks on aircraft en-route to China as a possibility. When you know in advance where the security attention is going to be, its much more likely that you will attack where it is not.

For example, suppose some religiously radicalized air force pilots of some nation bordering china decide to take it upon themselves to arm an aircraft and attack a plane from Israel? I really doubt they will have a fighter escort all the way to Chinese airspace, and if it is a suicide mission, a fighter has a lot more range than if it is a sortie you plan to return from.

But yeah, I expect the worst regardless of the fact that I can always imagine the worst!

 

[The Painter]

. . Not only do I condemn it absolutely, but I have close friends here who lost family members there.

The way read it, you were implying that 100's were an acceptable number and that 1000's were not. I will not let a third party tell me what to think. Now that it has come directly from you. I apologize for misinterpreting what you wrote.

I have some financial investments in China and I will say they have done very well for me. I do fear that these upcoming Olympics may show the dark side of China, instead of the shining jewel of the orient they want everyone to see. I hope it comes off good for them. Good for them will also be good for me.

I also understand your position in China can be perilous. If you do say the wrong thing, you could wind up in prison at the whim of some bureaucrat. Good luck to you.

 

[Giz]

Perhaps now would be a good time for a sing-a-long:

Official 2008 Olympics Song: Please Ignore The Communism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XDU3ePlyH8&feature=user

 

[gtc]

This ad is so annoying it made the news in Australia:


The company behind the advert is the same company behind the Opening Ceremony uniforms of the Chinese Athletes which has been compared to Tomato Scrambled Eggs:

"When the Chinese delegation comes out, they will certainly catch the eyes of the audience," the outfit's designer, Liu Ruiqi, told The China Daily.
The state-run newspaper didn't make it clear whether the Liu Ruiqi it quoted was the same Liu Ruiqi who is the chairman of the Hengyuanxiang Company Ltd, which selected the winning design from thousands of entries in a year-long competition.

 

[a_unique_person]

I saw a picture in the local paper of the Nepalese police beating up Tibetan protesters in Tibet. I could be wrong, but some of the police looked distinctly Western, with pale skin and blond hair.

 

[Wolfman]

I saw a picture in the local paper of the Nepalese police beating up Tibetan protesters in Tibet. I could be wrong, but some of the police looked distinctly Western, with pale skin and blond hair.

Ummmm...Nepal is a separate country, no way there are Nepalese police in Tibet.

 

[Grillfire]

Although no exact count is possible, I fully believe that quite likely hundreds of people died at Tiananmen Square. But not thousands...a figure that Geoffrey York has used very frequently in numerous reports about China. The only sources that he's able to cite are A) a report that was made on the day of the massacre, in the midst of massive confusion (and a report that was later revised by the same organization that made the initial report), and a single author who was not even present at the event in question.

By contrast, as I mention in my reply, I personally know several people who were there, and one whose brother was killed that day. Not a single one of them comes even close to "thousands" of people killed. And if you want to argue that perhaps they are afraid of the government, then how about Chinese dissidents from the Tiananmen Square protests who have since left China, and now live in Canada, and the U.S. Surely, if thousands of people had been killed that day, they would be the first ones to declare that...yet to my knowledge, not a single one of them makes such a claim.

And if you check out any of the numerous human rights groups that address the Tiananmen Square Massacre, you will likewise find that they pretty much universally put the numbers in the hundreds. These are people who are pretty strongly anti-Chinese...yet even they don't claim it was "thousands" of people killed.

Here is an eyewitness account that supports your claim.

"As a researcher in 1989 for Human Rights Watch in Beijing, Robin Munro witnessed first hand the weeks of pro-democracy demonstrations in the city and the People's Liberation Army's final assault on June 3-4."

...Can you describe that what happened on the night of June 3 and [the morning of the] 4th out there and your personal experiences?

<long response> ..... <final words below>

... Reports in the week after June Fourth stated that troops had assaulted the monument about 4:30 a.m. and massacred all the students on the monument, saying that thousands of students had been shot down in cold blood. That didn't happen, and had it happened, I wouldn't be here today -- as simple as that. ...

I can't post a link because my post count is less than 15. Just Google for "Robin Munro PBS" and click on the first link.


Also Google for "Black Hands of Beijing". Click on the second link. (The first link the Amazon page for the book.)

I hope Robin Munro is credible enough for Geoffrey York.

 

[gtc]

Ummmm...Nepal is a separate country, no way there are Nepalese police in Tibet.

It was the Nepal side of the border apparently.