:-( Beijing Olympics -- A Lot of Unhappy People

[mrbaracuda]

Certainly, the Chinese talk about someone who "has no face", or "doesn't want face". This doesn't so much mean that they've lost so much face they couldn't get it back; it means rather that the person is entirely untrustworthy, and doesn't care about their reputation or responsibility to others.

And how is it measured? There are no absolute ways...it is very much a relative thing. You can cause yourself to lose face; and others can cause you to lose face (although lost face caused by others would never lead to people saying you have no face). And likewise, you can cause yourself to gain face, and others can give you face.

Thank you so far!
What would be the easiest way for you to lose / gain face as an 'outsider' and for a native Chinese in comparison if I may ask?

 

[Wolfman]

Thank you so far!
What would be the easiest way for you to lose / gain face as an 'outsider' and for a native Chinese in comparison if I may ask?

I don't think I can answer that easily, in that there are so many different ways. But let me give some real-world examples from my own experience, to demonstrate not only how complicated -- and sometimes anti-intuitive -- it can be.

Example #1

At a banquet with various Chinese businessmen, we were all quite drunk (normal for such banquets), and someone mentioned a particular Chinese gov't official that I didn't like. I said something critical about him, essentially calling him an idiot. It was then revealed that he was the brother-in-law of one of the businessmen at the table (which was why someone else had mentioned him).

My comment caused a loss of face for that man, and effectively destroyed any chance of doing business with him. A simple apology or retraction wouldn't make a difference -- everyone there basically agreed with my opinion, but I was the one who caused the loss of face by stating it out loud.

The only way that I could remedy the situation was by giving him more face than I'd caused him to lose. Which is what I did. I was already quite drunk, but I filled a large glass with Chinese bai jiu (about 60% alcohol, tastes vile), told him that I was doing this to demonstrate my respect to him, and then downed the whole glass.

It made me quite sick...I didn't even make it to the toilet before puking up the entire contents of my stomach. Yet it did the job, because the message I gave to him and to everyone else there -- in a very visible and undeniable fashion -- was that his respect was so important to me that I'd damage my own health to demonstrate it. The result was that not only was our relationship not damaged, but it was actually strenghthened.

Example #2

I was working as a consultant for a Chinese-owned 5-star hotel in Qingdao in 1999. I was the only foreigner working there, everyone else from the Board of Directors on down was Chinese. I was hired to help them change to a more western style of management, in order to attract more foreign guests.

I did about a month of extensive research, both at our hotel, and our competitors. I wrote up a brilliant analysis of the problems the hotel faced, and the strategies we needed to adopt in order to deal with them. And I then did a half-day presentation to the Board of Directors.

The response at the meeting itself seemed quite enthusiastic, and I was given the green light to go ahead and begin implementing the changes that I'd suggested. However, I quickly discovered that every attempt I made to actually facilitate those changes was stonewalled...and eventually I figured out that it was the Board of Directors who were presenting all these barriers.

Now, the hotel was losing money; and from my western perspective, if I was on the Board of Directors of a hotel that was losing money, and I brought in someone who implemented changes that caused the hotel to become profitable, that would mean a great increase in my own face. However, that's not the way that the Chinese looked at it.

From their point of view, they were older than me, and had a longer history in hotels than me. Many of the plans and policies that I suggested directly contradicted plans and policies that they themselves had implemented in the past. To accept my ideas meant to implicitly admit that they had been wrong; and for me to be successful meant to implicitly admit that they did not know what they were doing, that they were incompetent leaders.

In other words, it meant that they lost face.

So, from their perspective, making money and becoming profitable meant losing face; but continuing to lose money meant no loss of face, because by stone-walling me to ensure I wasn't successful, they could later claim A) that my plans failed, and it was my fault, and/or B) attribute the losses to other factors, such as bad economy.

I learned my lesson the second time around...I was hired to do almost the same job for a Chinese 4-star hotel. This time, I started by going to the President of the hotel, and explaining things to him. I was very careful not to say, "This is what we should do", and rather say, "Here are some possible ideas, what do you think?". And I was careful to leave a few key questions that had obvious answers..."And what do you think we should do about such-and-such?"

Then, when we had the meeting with the full Board of Directors, the President started the meeting by saying, "I met with John to discuss these matters, and I have decided that we are going to do such-and-such". He then turned the meeting over to me to explain what we were going to do.

I presented exactly the same ideas both times; the first time was a miserable failure, the second time was a sparkling success. The difference came down to understanding how face worked. In the second situation, everyone knew that the ideas were my ideas...but I gave the President the appearance of being the one responsible for all of it, and thereby giving him face for all accomplishments.

There are numerous small ways you can cause someone to lose face (or lose face yourself)...sometimes things we wouldn't consider important at all. For example:

* When receiving a person's business card, failing to accept it with both hands, or to read it for at least 30 seconds before placing it in a special business card case (never just put it in your pocket)

* At a dinner, failing to drink exactly the same amount of alcohol as the person who toasts you (drinking more can make them lose face, unless you specifically state you are drinking more to demonstrate your respect for them; drinking less can make you lose face)

* At a dinner, not being aware of the proper seating, and sitting somewhere that you should not.

* Accepting praise for a job well done, without attempting to deny your accomplishment, or deflect the praise onto someone else.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Example #1
The only way that I could remedy the situation was by giving him more face than I'd caused him to lose. Which is what I did. I was already quite drunk, but I filled a large glass with Chinese bai jiu (about 60% alcohol, tastes vile), told him that I was doing this to demonstrate my respect to him, and then downed the whole glass.

It made me quite sick...I didn't even make it to the toilet before puking up the entire contents of my stomach. Yet it did the job, because the message I gave to him and to everyone else there -- in a very visible and undeniable fashion -- was that his respect was so important to me that I'd damage my own health to demonstrate it. The result was that not only was our relationship not damaged, but it was actually strenghthened.

Lesson Learned:

Drinking is good for you, and good for business.

I heartily endorse this anecdote being taught at Harvard Business school, and to any and all tea totallers who do not grasp the role of the booze for schmooze in the international business environment.

DR

 

[Wolfman]

Lesson Learned:

Drinking is good for you, and good for business.

I heartily endorse this anecdote being taught at Harvard Business school, and to any and all tea totallers who do not grasp the role of the booze for schmooze in the international business environment.

DR

Oh, in China, I'd consider drinking to be almost indispensable in doing business. Oh, sure, you can do business without drinking...but you're never going to build the relationships and networks that will guarantee the greatest opportunities, and minimize your risks.

 

[Wolfman]

I'll expand on the drinking scenario, to try to explain it more effectively.

Think of 'face' as being determined by points. Lying to someone who is a close friend means you lose eight face-points. Lying to someone you don't know means you lose one face-point. Making a sacrifice to help a friend gives you five face-points. Etc.

It is all relative, but consider my drinking story in the following manner:

When I insulted the person who happened to be this guy's brother-in-law, I effectively caused the entire family to lose face...let's say five face-points. These face-points cannot be erased (the concept of 'forgiveness' is not a strong one in the Chinese culture). Forever and always, these negative face-points will exist.

So apologies -- attempts to take back what I've said, or to ask for forgiveness -- are largely useless.

The only thing I can do is try go do something that gives more face-points than have been lost. In this case, let's say that drinking an entire glass of bai jiu (when I was already quite drunk) to demonstrate my respect to this man is worth seven face-points. Then the net sum of face-points is plus two. I haven't erased my past error; but have compensated for it.

And face-points are not cumulative. If I did three different actions that were each worth three-face points (ie. telling him what a great man he is, complimenting other people in his family, and saying that I am stupid to have said such a thing), it doesn't total to nine face-points...it will still be only three face-points, and I'll still have a negative two score on the final tally.

Of course, no Chinese think of face in terms of face-points; it is a completely subconscious thing, almost instinctive. But there are definitely relative values ascribed to different actions, and you need to be aware of what those values are. If you cause someone to lose face in a big way, you could spend the rest of your life doing small things for that person to try to regain their trust/friendship, and never get anywhere; yet one single action of high enough value could effectively compensate for it.

 

[Cleon]

Oh, in China, I'd consider drinking to be almost indispensable in doing business. Oh, sure, you can do business without drinking...but you're never going to build the relationships and networks that will guarantee the greatest opportunities, and minimize your risks.

Clearly, my job is in the wrong country.

 

[a_unique_person]

I was actually going to bring up the same issue -- if we're talking simply about size, then yes, India is roughly comparable in population (and in fact will soon exceed China's population), but let me point out a few crucial issues:

* India's democracy came after an extended colonization by Britain; this introduced many of the structures and ideas necessary for a democracy. China has not had this experience.

* In India, which is democratic, it is impossible to implement effective birth control restrictions, because the people will never vote for a government that wants to impose such restrictions. Therefore, India's population continues to grow at a very rapid pace, a pace that sees it set to soon replace China as the most populous nation in the world (with significantly less land). I would argue that this is not a benefit; and although I disagree with some of the methods that China's government uses to enforce its birth control laws, I do believe that such restrictions are necessary.

* Chinese people enjoy far higher levels of social equality than Indians do. Previous systems in China that promoted social inequality -- inequality based on gender, inequality based on social level, etc. -- were largely destroyed by Communist policies. For all the abuses that happen here, the status of China's women, for example, has been massively improved. In India, on the other hand, the caste system still retains an oppressively strong grip on the culture. And again, it is difficult for any government to take strong action against is, because any government that does so will generally be voted out of power.

* To further support my argument, China's growth far exceeds that of India's. Not just economic growth, but overall improvement of standard of living, standard of education, etc.

It is a sad but true reality that countries like China and India face significant problems that more developed nations do not. And because of that, they must sometimes make hard decisions that are very unpopular with the people of that country, but nevertheless are quite necessary. A democratic country in such a situation is essentially handcuffed, because any government that tries to enact such policies will be voted out of power and replaced by a government that will immediately rescind them.

I knew, you're a communist.

 

[mrbaracuda]

Clearly, my job is in the wrong country.

Also a great excuse when you're a drunk, isn't it?
'I .. dirnk to zee, *hic* I respect *slurslur* you sooo much *hic*'



Thanks again Wolfman.
Many strange things there in China.