Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

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dejudge

When Josephus wrote that
He also frequented that temple of Jupiter which they style the Capitol, which is with them the most holy of all their temples, and had boldness enough to call himself the brother of Jupiter.
he wasn't describing Gaius really as the brother of a God, but as a madman who claimed divine status.

Galatians 1:1 does not mean that Jesus had never been a man. It means that it was the heavenly risen Jesus who called Paul to be an apostle, not the physical human Jesus who had existed prior to the crucifixion, and who called Cephas and the other apostles. Paul is evidently asserting that his calling is from a higher source than theirs.
 
You missed the single most important passage in Josephus which shows that the brother of "Y" does not always mean "Y" was human.

That passage is irrelevant. I was looking at expansions of proper names specifying a fraternal relationship, in a manner similar to patronymic names (I suppose I could call them fraternonymic names), to find parallels to the construction used in Gal. 1:19. That passage in Josephus is not an example of that. My only point, irrespective of any other facts, is that the expression that Paul uses otherwise pertains to literal family relationships, not a spiritual sense of a brotherhood (as when Paul refers to other Christians as "our dear brothers").

As for the emperor, who was worshipped as a living god in the Roman Empire, he may well have construed himself as having a familial relationship with the gods.

It is a failure of logic to assume the "Lord Jesus" was human in Galatians. <snip>

1. Galatians 1.1--The Lord Jesus was NOT a man.

No, it is a failure of reading comprehension to miss that Paul believed that Jesus was born and died a man but who was glorified in the resurrection as the spiritual and powerful Son of God. As stated in Romans 1:3-4, "his Son was a descendent of David according to the flesh [ZOMG HE WAS A HUMAN!!!] who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord." Thus Paul had zero problem referring to Jesus as a man: "...how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by he grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many" (5:15), "so through the obedience of one man the many were made righteous" (5:19), "Since death came from a man, the resurrection of the dead comes through a man" (1 Cor. 15:21), "being found in appearance a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient in death" (Phil. 2:8). The point in Gal. 1:1 wasn't that Jesus wasn't ever a man; it was that Paul's mission was divinely authorized...he was not merely sent by men, like those sent from James to Antioch (Gal. 2:12), but directly by Jesus through divine revelation (1:11-12, 16, 2:2).

The conception of Jesus in Galatians is parallel to that in Romans. He presents Jesus first as a man born in the flesh: "God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship." (Gal. 4:4-5). Then he was crucified and died (2:21, 3:13), which redeemed the faithful from the curse of the law, but God "raised him from the dead" (1:1), who now in the spiritual sphere guides Paul through revelation (1:12, 16), and whose Spirit God sends to the believers (4:6). The sonship that Christians receive parallels the sonship that Jesus receives in the resurrection in Romans 1.

The point is driven home by the Hagar analogy in chapter 4. Just as Jesus was "born of a woman, born under the curse" (4:4), so too the believers born as slaves through Hagar, "born according to the flesh" (4:23, 29). The adoption to sonship however gives the believers their inheritance and freedom from slavery from the law. They are "born as the result of a promise" (4:23), their mother is "the Jerusalem that is above" (4:26), they are "born by the power of the Spirit" (wording very similar to Romans 1:3-4 about Jesus being appointed the Son in power by the Spirit of holiness). So this parallelism between Christ and the believers works because Jesus was similarly born in the flesh, born under the law, subject to its curses (see the previous chapter about the law cursing him in death), and glorified to sonship in the power of the Spirit. So Paul says "brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman" (4:31). This does not mean that Paul and other Christians were never really born in the flesh and were always indwelled by the Spirit; they had a change of circumstance, their bondage to law by being born in the flesh no longer counts, they have transcended it thanks to Christ. Thus, as Paul wrote in the previous chapter, "there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female" (3:28); these divisions are based on fleshly criteria that no longer matter. So Paul's emphasis on both Jesus and the faithful as being born in the flesh under the law is critical to the whole point of the letter. Why? The whole point of the letter is to argue against the continued practice of circumcision. The dispute about circumcision is what occasioned the letter. That is why Paul makes a point about mentioning Jesus being born a human being under the law; circumcision more than any other portion of the law is concerned with the flesh and its divisions (such as Jew and Gentile, male and female). Paul says in essence: It doesn't matter anymore if you have been adopted as God's child.
 
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Driwus

Paul's doctrine of the resurrection demands a physical human Jesus. It is Jesus' resurrection that proves that other physical human believers will return to life after death.
1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
 
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I don't know about Greek, but if Peter was also a "Brother Of The Lord" in English it should read: "Peter and James, the Brothers of the Lord"

The Greek for anyone that cares is

ΕΤΕΡΟΝ ΔΕ ΤΩΝ ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΩΝ ΟΥΚ ΕΙΔΟΝ ΕΙ ΜΗ ΙΑΚΩΒΟΝ ΤΟΝ ΑΔΕΛΦΟΝ ΤΟΥ ΚΥΡΙΟΥ
 
Craig: I agree.

"His Son was born of the seed of David according to the flesh....For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering, and so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us." (Rom. 1:3, 8:3-4)
 
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That passage is irrelevant.

It is your argument that is irrelevant. The Lord Jesus in Galatians was NEVER claimed to be human with a human father. God was identified as the Father of the Lord Jesus.

The passage in Josephus Antiquities of the Jews 19.1.1 is extremely relevant and utterly destroys any argument that the "Lord" in Galatians 1.19 must refer to a human being.

It is confirmed that people of antiquity called themselves the brothers of Myth Gods.

Plus, the Lord Jesus in Galatians is SPECIFICALLY described and introduced as a non-human who was raised from the dead--the Son of a God.

The Lord Jesus has NO human father in Galatians which is completely compatible with the NT and the teachings of the Church.

It is a failure of logic to put forward the absurd notion that the Pauline Corpus was known to be CONTRARY to the teachings of the Church but was still Canonised unless the Church writers were complete IDIOTS.


Galatians 1:1 KJV
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)

Apologetic writers have ALREADY explained that the Apostle James in Galatians 1.19 was NOT the brother of Jews.

http://newadvent.org/fathers/23101.htm

Chrysostom's Commentary on Galatians
But as he considered that he had a share in the august titles of the Apostles, he exalts himself by honoring James; and this he does by calling him “the Lord's brother,” although he was not by birth His brother, but only so reputed.
 
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dejudge

When Josephus wrote that he wasn't describing Gaius really as the brother of a God, but as a madman who claimed divine status.

Galatians 1:1 does not mean that Jesus had never been a man. It means that it was the heavenly risen Jesus who called Paul to be an apostle, not the physical human Jesus who had existed prior to the crucifixion, and who called Cephas and the other apostles. Paul is evidently asserting that his calling is from a higher source than theirs.


You made up your story. You have NO sources of antiquity to support you.

You don't seem to understand that you MUST, MUST, MUST provide a SOURCE of antiquity for what you say.

I no longer entertain imagined stories.

1. In Galatians 1 --the Lord Jesus was NOT a man.

2.In Galatians--- the Lord Jesus had NO human father.

3. In Galatians 4 ---the Father of the Lord Jesus was GOD.


Galatians is compatible with the teachings of Church and the NT.

Your HJ was NOT the Lord Jesus in Galatians.

You must have forgotten who your ASSUMED HJ was.

What was the name of your HJ?

When did your HJ DIE?

May I remind you that the LORD Jesus Christ was STILL LIVING in the time of King Aretas c 37-41 CE.

1 Corinthians 15:8 KJV
And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time

Your HJ was NOT the brother of the Apostle James.

Your HJ is an unevidenced modern invention.
 
The argument, which you say can be turned against me, was to point out that all sceptic writers have known full well that Paul’s letter say’s “save James, the Lord’s brother”. But for numerous reasons, which we have discussed to death, and which almost all those authors have addressed directly, they do not accept that Paul is talking about anyone known to be an actual family member.

Are you denying that these authors have all long since known of those words in Paul’s letter?

I do not know which authors you are speaking of. If you mean Wells and Bauer I have not read anything from them. I have reviewed the only book I know of Schweitzer and he doesn't mention the subject at all. Of course, Carrier and Doherty know the epistle, but as I have said, they do unconvincing interpretations of this passage.

Which Pauline letters make credible claim to knowing anyone who was a family member of a living Jesus? Which of those letters even make any credible claim to anyone ever knowing or meeting a living Jesus?
Can you quote those letters saying those things, please.

You are wandering out of the issue. I do not know how you interpret "credible". I mean, I do know this and I think you maintain an absurd criterion. We have discussed this before. But now we weren't talking about whether Paul's epistles are credible or not, but if they say what they say. I hope that you will turn back to the subject.

Where did the above quotes come from? I.e., these quoted sentences -

1. "Peter, the other players and James, the Gipsy" … where is that from?
2. "Peter, the other apostles and James, the Lord's brother", … where is that from?


Where are those phrases quoted from? Can you quote properly which letters or gospels they come from?

Of course.
"Peter, the other players and James, the Gipsy". Gipsies’ Gospel. 4: 8. Sans blague!

"Peter, the other apostles and James, the Lord's brother" is an abbreviation of Galatians 1: 18-19: (18) “Then after three years I did go up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days; (19) but I did not see any other apostle except James the Lord’s brother”.



4. All the other people quoted here are "brothers in Christ". …. “all” of which other people? Only “Peter” and “James” are named in what you have written. And where does your quote ever say those “other people” are only brothers in beliefs and not blood brothers? Where does it say that James is however a blood brother?

“Other apostles” are also mentioned.

"Brother of the Lord" identifies only James as brother in blood of Jesus.

... where did that conclusion spring from? etc

It's very simple. When two or more items are listed and a singular descriptive particle is introduced at the end of the sentence it affects only the last term in the enumeration.

"Peter, the other disciples and Mark, the evangelist," only qualifies Mark as an evangelist, not Peter, nor the other disciples. "Vincent, the other artists and Emmanuel, the philosopher" only qualifies Emmanuel as a philosopher. Etc.

According to the alternative accepted by yourself (Third premise: "Brother” has two possible meanings: "brother in Christ" or "brother in blood".), James can only be qualified as a blood brother.

Please quote any sentences from Paul’s genuine letters where it clearly says that anyone was known to him as a family brother of Jesus. Just quote that please.

Please quote any sentence from any of Paul’s genuine letters where Paul claims to know anyone who had actually met a living Jesus (as any brother certainly would have done! … as indeed would his mother!). Just quote that please.

I hope you have now understood and not ask me again for things I've already explained. Thank you.
 
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David

Prince Charles is the Prince of Wales and Duke of Cornwall. He is not addressed as Duke; in fact, as top-ranking living male in his tribe, he is frequently called just "Charles." John Seymour is Duke of Somerset and not prince of anything. He is not called prince but is called Duke.

Charles and John, the Duke of Cornwall, left the party to have a smoke.

What we conclude here is just that John is Duke of Cornwall, and not Charles. This is contradictory with the first paragraph. What we can correctly conclude from Galatians 1: 18-19 is that Paul and other apostles were not “Lord’s brothers” in the same sense that James.

“Suppose Peter is both apostle with portfolio and apostle after loyal companionship with a natural Jesus, the latter station being styled "Brother of the Lord," and that James is apostle after loyal companionship with a natural Jesus, but without portfolio.”


We can suppose many things and I don’t understand well your concept of “portfolio”, but if only Peter had “portfolio”, “portfolios” is not what differentiate James from the others. What James has differentiates him from Peter and the other apostles. And you say the other apostles don’t have “portfolio”.
 
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I don't know about Greek, but if Peter was also a "Brother Of The Lord" in English it should read: "Peter and James, the Brothers of the Lord"

I'm afraid there are people here who do not know Greek, nor well understand the logic of the language they speak. The qualifying particle that goes in singular at the end of an enumeration refers only to the last term. This is something elemental. This descriptive particle is used to identify the last term and it alone. This is something elemental. If you want qualify all the terms of an enumeration you ought to use the plural. It is to say, "Peter, the other apostles and James, the brothers of the Lord", as you say.

Elemental, dear Watson.

PS: I don't know if "particle" is the correct linguistic term. I mean the qualificative sequence: "Lord's brother" or similar.
 
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dejudge

Another astounding piece from you!
May I remind you that the LORD Jesus Christ was STILL LIVING in the time of King Aretas c 37-41 CE.
1 Corinthians 15:8 KJV And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
Dear me. Aretas was ruler of Damascus. Paul was on the road to Damascus when he saw Jesus. Therefore Jesus was alive in the reign of Aretas.

Well, what Paul saw was a vision of Jesus. At least so he says, but to be honest dejudge I think he had an epileptic seizure or something like that. And I really don't think people hearing voices from the sky and seeing lights is evidence of anything except their own mental states.

If such things were evidence then we could say that Jesus' mother was alive during the First World War because little Portuguese shepherd children saw her in a place called Fatima in 1917.
 
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You really expect skepticism out of a Myther???!!!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stone

I'm not a 'myther' but I have shown skepticism of your grandiose claims and have soundly refuted them.

Perhaps you should be skeptical of these absurd ideas that pop into your head about the 'very human Jesus' Paul supposedly believed in...

It would save you a great deal of embarrassment. ;)
 
..Paul's doctrine of the resurrection demands a physical human Jesus.

Your claim is a well known fallacy.

Human beings cannot resurrect. The Pauline doctrine required a non-historical character.

The Pauline doctrine required mythology and that is EXACTLY what is found in Galatians.

From the very first verse the author introduced his Myth character a non-human resurrected being.


1. Galatians 1:1 KJV
---Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)


2. Galatians 1. 11
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.


3. Galatians 1. 15
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood.


Craig B said:
It is Jesus' resurrection that proves that other physical human believers will return to life after death.

If Jesus was really human he could not have proven anything about life AFTER death. You are only confirming that the Pauline Corpus is a Pack of lies.

The Jesus in Galatians did NOT really die.

The Pauline Jesus SURVIVED the crucifixion.

Your HJ is NOT the brother of the Apostle James.

Your ASSUMED HJ is a Myth.
 
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You made up your story. You have NO sources of antiquity to support you.
Yes I have. Josephus and Galatians.
You don't seem to understand that you MUST, MUST, MUST provide a SOURCE of antiquity for what you say.

I no longer entertain imagined stories.
Did you use to? That must have been nice. With me it's the other way about. Imagined stories entertain me.
1. In Galatians 1 --the Lord Jesus was NOT a man.

2.In Galatians--- the Lord Jesus had NO human father.

3. In Galatians 4 ---the Father of the Lord Jesus was GOD.[/b]
Look at the evidence, and be duly entertained.
Galatians 4:4 but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
But how did Jesus become a "Son". By his mum being impregnated by a Ghost? No, dejudge.
Romans 1:3 concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
So he was born in a human lineage and composed of human flesh, and then
4 declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 by whom we have received grace and apostleship
So it was the resurrected Jesus who did these things. Do you know why Paul said that, dejudge? Because the resurrected Jesus was the only one Paul claimed to have met. But he knew that Jesus' companions had met the living human Jesus, and so he was trying to show that his spiritual knowledge of Jesus was better than their human knowledge, which Paul didn't have.
 
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Your claim is a well known fallacy.

Human beings cannot resurrect. The Pauline doctrine required a non-historical character.
Paul believed that human beings now could resurrect. He even started fights over this in the Sanhedrin.
Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. 7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.
So his doctrine required a historical human character. Otherwise Jesus' resurrection would have held no promise of the general resurrection. That is Paul's essential message.
1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.…
 
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Brainache


No. Paul never says whether or not Peter is a "Brother of the Lord." What Paul does say is that Peter is entrusted with an apostalate to a named group just as Paul was. They are peers; Peter is the only person Paul decribes as his peer.

Why would Paul even bring up whether Peter was James' peer, when Peter is described as Paul's peer and James isn't? Surely not for identification. "Rocky" is already a distinctive identifying epithet in the context of the story. Once it is established who James is, then John, he of James, Rocky and John, is adequately identified when the (reputed - or is it widely known?) epithet of "pillars" is given to the three collectively.


Yes, he does, at 1 Corinthians 9: 5


The "rest of the apostles" are the apostles besides Paul, at least one of whom, James, is also among the Brothers of the Lord, and another of whom is Cephas.

The sentence is constructed as a typical "build of three" (most numerous category, then apparent proper subset, and finally a unique member), it would be just fine if Cephas were a Brother of the Lord, just as James, a known Brother of the Lord, is also an apostle other than Paul.

I conjecture that the build of three is progressively specific (Cephas is both), not just decreasing in cardinality, and that it is increasing in status. (It's nice to be an apostle, but you must be at least a BoL to get any personal time with Paul, and Cephas alone is someone whom Paul will approach as a peer - not always a nice thing, but a distinction nonetheless.)

It does seem to refer to some sort of hierarchy in the cult Paul is associating with.

The Brothers of the Lord does appear to be a special group or rank among them, as they have permission to marry the Sisters of the Lord:

"Do we not have the right to take along a sister [as] wife, like the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?"
 
Yes I have. Josephus and Galatians.

Josephus and Galatians did NOT write about your obscure HJ who was crucified by the Romans because he created havoc at the Jewish Temple.

You make stuff up. Your HJ never existed in or out the Bible.
 
Josephus and Galatians did NOT write about your obscure HJ who was crucified by the Romans because he created havoc at the Jewish Temple.

You make stuff up. Your HJ never existed in or out the Bible.
No, the Galatians didn't write anything we know of. Paul wrote to them. But he wrote to various people about a crucified Jesus who was of the seed of David.
 
Josephus and Galatians did NOT write about your obscure HJ who was crucified by the Romans because he created havoc at the Jewish Temple.

You make stuff up. Your HJ never existed in or out the Bible.

Josephus tells us:

"Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah."

And in Galatians very first verse Paul denies Jesus was a man.

How this helps the 18th century Gospel of the Historic Jesus is a mystery.

The main thing they seem to have in common is the name 'Jesus'...
 
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