Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

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I do not know what reasons Bruno Bauer, Albert Schweitzer and George A. Wells had, but I think they maintained different points of view enough to not lump them all in the same boat. Maybe you like to tell us any of these reasons and we can discuss them here.

However, take care with your argument because it can turn against you. I can ask why Carrier and Doherty are unable to persuade the majority of historians and the answer will be similar or worse for mythicist side.



The argument, which you say can be turned against me, was to point out that all sceptic writers have known full well that Paul’s letter say’s “save James, the Lord’s brother”. But for numerous reasons, which we have discussed to death, and which almost all those authors have addressed directly, they do not accept that Paul is talking about anyone known to be an actual family member.

Are you denying that these authors have all long since known of those words in Paul’s letter?



This is strictly false. Some Pauline epistles, usually admitted as genuine, speak about the Jesus' family. Either true or not that the family of Jesus existed, what is clear is that some early texts of Christianity spoke of people who had known Jesus as a human. May be you wanted to say another thing and you were not too precise.


Albert Schweitzer:

“Jesus as a concrete historical personality remains a stranger to our time, but His spirit, which lies hidden in His words, is known in simplicity, and its influence is direct. Every saying contains in its own way the whole Jesus”. (Albert Schweitzer: The Quest of Historical Jesus, London, Adam and Charles Black, 1911; p. 399)

A strange "sceptic".


Which Pauline letters make credible claim to knowing anyone who was a family member of a living Jesus? Which of those letters even make any credible claim to anyone ever knowing or meeting a living Jesus?

Can you quote those letters saying those things, please.
 
David Mo

As you say,
Second premise. "Peter, the other apostles and James, the Lord's brother", denotes that James has a defining feature that identifies him among the others: he is the brother or the Lord.
Third premise: "Brother” has two possible meanings: "brother in Christ" or "brother in blood".
Fourth premise: All the other people quoted here are "brothers in Christ".
Conclusion: "Brother of the Lord" identifies James only as brother in blood of Jesus.
Exactly. If it simply meant believer in this case, as the word may well mean in other contexts, then it could not have distinguished James from Peter and the other apostles. Moreover the 500 alleged seers of the risen Christ are not referred to as brothers "of The Lord".

And we have a brother James, along with other family members, at Matt 13:55.
 
I do not know what reasons Bruno Bauer, Albert Schweitzer and George A. Wells had, but I think they maintained different points of view enough to not lump them all in the same boat. Maybe you like to tell us any of these reasons and we can discuss them here.

However, take care with your argument because it can turn against you. I can ask why Carrier and Doherty are unable to persuade the majority of historians and the answer will be similar or worse for mythicist side.

Your argument is a failure of logic.

The majority is NOT evidence.

Based on your absurdity Atheists can go jump in a lake because they are outnumbered by Bible Believers.

We already know that there are Billions of Bible Believers of whom many are HJers.


David Mo said:
As for Carrier and Doherty, yes I know their arguments and they seem flimsy. We have discussed here the interpretation of "James, the brother of the Lord" and I think I showed that it is not grammatically consistent.

The matter had been resolved over 15 hundred years ago.

John Chrysostom in a Commentary of the very same passage [Galatians 1.19] admitted James the Apostle was NOT the brother of Jesus.

Chrysostom's Commentary on Galatians 1
But as he considered that he had a share in the august titles of the Apostles, he exalts himself by honoring James; and this he does by calling him “the Lord's brother,” although he was not by birth His brother, but only so reputed...

Please, get familiar with the WITNESSES of antiquity. Writings attributed to Jerome and Papias show that James the Apostle was NOT the brother of Jesus.

Pauline writers admitted their Jesus was the Son of God and a Woman.

James the Apostle could NOT be the brother of Jesus when it is claimed his father was Alphaeus and his mother was the sister of Mary.

It is also admitted in Galatians 1.1 that the Pauline Jesus was NOT a man.

In 1 Corinthians, it is admitted the Pauline Jesus was a Spirit--the Last Adam.
 
Your argument is a failure of logic.

The majority is NOT evidence.

Based on your absurdity Atheists can go jump in a lake because they are outnumbered by Bible Believers.

We already know that there are Billions of Bible Believers of whom many are HJers.




The matter had been resolved over 15 hundred years ago.

John Chrysostom in a Commentary of the very same passage [Galatians 1.19] admitted James the Apostle was NOT the brother of Jesus.

Chrysostom's Commentary on Galatians 1

Please, get familiar with the WITNESSES of antiquity. Writings attributed to Jerome and Papias show that James the Apostle was NOT the brother of Jesus.

Pauline writers admitted their Jesus was the Son of God and a Woman.

James the Apostle could NOT be the brother of Jesus when it is claimed his father was Alphaeus and his mother was the sister of Mary.

It is also admitted in Galatians 1.1 that the Pauline Jesus was NOT a man.

In 1 Corinthians, it is admitted the Pauline Jesus was a Spirit--the Last Adam.

What makes you think Chrysostom is a reliable witness?

We've already seen how he accuses Jews of eating babies and drinking blood as part of their religion, I don't think he is a great expert on 1st Century Palestine.
 
As you say,
David Mo

As you say,
David Mo

First premise. "Peter, the other players and James, the Gipsy" denotes that James has a defining feature that identifies him among the others: he is a Gipsy.
Second premise. "Peter, the other apostles and James, the Lord's brother", denotes that James has a defining feature that identifies him among the others: he is the brother or the Lord.
Third premise: "Brother” has two possible meanings: "brother in Christ" or "brother in blood".
Fourth premise: All the other people quoted here are "brothers in Christ".
Conclusion: "Brother of the Lord" identifies James only as brother in blood of Jesus



Exactly. If it simply meant believer in this case, as the word may well mean in other contexts, then it could not have distinguished James from Peter and the other apostles. Moreover the 500 alleged seers of the risen Christ are not referred to as brothers "of The Lord".

And we have a brother James, along with other family members, at Matt 13:55.



Where did the above quotes come from? I.e., these quoted sentences -

1. "Peter, the other players and James, the Gipsy" … where is that from?
2. "Peter, the other apostles and James, the Lord's brother", … where is that from?


Where are those phrases quoted from? Can you quote properly which letters or gospels they come from?



3. "Brother” has two possible meanings: "brother in Christ" or "brother in blood" ….Yes!

4. All the other people quoted here are "brothers in Christ". …. “all” of which other people? Only “Peter” and “James” are named in what you have written. And where does your quote ever say those “other people” are only brothers in beliefs and not blood brothers? Where does it say that James is however a blood brother?


Conclusion: "Brother of the Lord" identifies James only as brother in blood of Jesus

... where did that conclusion spring from? It does not follow at all. You are simply assuming that when Paul says “brother” he always means a “brother in belief”, except when you want James (and/or others) to be blood brothers in which case you simply assert that you can then “conclude” that in that case Paul meant something else by the word “brother” and meant James was a blood brother of Jesus!

Where does Paul ever say James was a blood brother of Jesus?

Paul does not say that about James, or about anyone else afaik.

Paul describes various people as brothers, brethren, sisters etc. But wherever the context is clear, Paul always means brothers in religious belief. In contrast afaik, there is no such sentence in Paul’s letters where the opposite context of a family brother is clearly indicated, meant, or stated.

If there is any such sentence in Paul’s letters clearly stating anyone is a blood brother who therefore had met and known a living Jesus, then please quote any such passage from Paul’s letters.

Please quote any sentences from Paul’s genuine letters where it clearly says that anyone was known to him as a family brother of Jesus. Just quote that please.

Please quote any sentence from any of Paul’s genuine letters where Paul claims to know anyone who had actually met a living Jesus (as any brother certainly would have done! … as indeed would his mother!). Just quote that please.
 
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... Please, get familiar with the WITNESSES of antiquity. Writings attributed to Jerome and Papias show that James the Apostle was NOT the brother of Jesus.
"Writings attributed to" Papias show that he was an idiot.
Eusebius concludes from the writings of Papias that he was a chiliast, understanding the Millennium as a literal period in which Christ will reign on Earth, and chastises Papias for his literal interpretation of figurative passages, calling him a man of "little intelligence" whose misunderstanding misled Irenaeus and others.
Accounts of the absurdities he believed literally may be found here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papias_of_Hierapolis Hey, but maybe Papias didn't exist and is a later forgery!

ETA, by the way, Papius was probably active c 100 AD but according to my source
The work of Papias is dated by most modern scholars to about 95–120 ( ... ) Papias himself knows several New Testament books, whose dates are themselves controversial
On this, see also http://newtestamenthistory.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/papias-on-mark-and-matthew.html

See also Carrier http://infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/NTcanon.html#II
Moreover, it is possible that the canonical Gospels did not achieve their final (near-present) form until during or shortly after the time of Papias.
 
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jobberone

You would think non-Messianic Jews would dismiss it merely by denying his existence.
I would? Why? If the issue is Jesus' Messiahship, and that can be confidently refuted within the premises held by Jesus' proponent, isn't that the end of the conversation? If Jesus doesn't fit the profile, then what difference does it make to his candidacy whether or not he actually lived?

Doesn't this thread, all by itself, illustrate that an attempt to argue that Jesus didn't live won't result in a resolution of any question? Isn't that a dandy explanation of why I think a "non-Messianic Jew" would try something else instead?

BTW, current thought on Gnosticism is it started in the second century.
Yes, but it's a lot like the canon. You can talk about it as a unit, and ask when did it become widely viewed as a "thing," or you can talk about when the parts that eventually made up the thing came into being. Necessarily, the parts came into being before the thing of which they eventually were the parts. How much before is hard to say.

Again this is not proof Jesus existed but one can't make the argument Mohammed is real and Jesus is not without raising eyebrows.
Say what? Mohammed is much more securely a historical character than Jesus, or than Gabriel, another stock character which Mohammed ripped off from surrounding cultures. Or am I to tremble when suggesting that Mo is historical and Gabriel is not?

David

Prince Charles is the Prince of Wales and Duke of Cornwall. He is not addressed as Duke; in fact, as top-ranking living male in his tribe, he is frequently called just "Charles." John Seymour is Duke of Somerset and not prince of anything. He is not called prince but is called Duke.

Charles and John, the Duke of Cornwall, left the party to have a smoke.

X Conclude: Charles is not a Duke.

Peter, in Paul's reckoning, is an apostle with portfolio, one of only two such people in Paul's writing (and the two portfolios, to the Jews and to the Gentiles, seem to be exhaustive). Nowhere is any James described as holding a portfolio, but a James is mentioned as having received the apostolic qualifcation - an appearance of the Lord (1 Corithians 15: 7).

Suppose Peter is both apostle with portfolio and apostle after loyal companionship with a natural Jesus, the latter station being styled "Brother of the Lord," and that James is apostle after loyal companionship with a natural Jesus, but without portfolio.

Peter and James, the Brother of the Lord, met with Paul when he visited Jerusalem.

X Conclude: Peter is not a Brother of the Lord

Where is the grammatical problem in either example sentence? The difficulty may be in your third premise:

"Brother” has two possible meanings: "brother in Christ" or "brother in blood".
"Brother of the Lord" is a noun phrase, and may have a meaning which cannot be inferred from the separate meanings of its parts. Charles, for example, isn't Welsh, but he is the Prince of Wales.
 
jobberone


I would? Why? If the issue is Jesus' Messiahship, and that can be confidently refuted within the premises held by Jesus' proponent, isn't that the end of the conversation? If Jesus doesn't fit the profile, then what difference does it make to his candidacy whether or not he actually lived?

Doesn't this thread, all by itself, illustrate that an attempt to argue that Jesus didn't live won't result in a resolution of any question? Isn't that a dandy explanation of why I think a "non-Messianic Jew" would try something else instead?


Yes, but it's a lot like the canon. You can talk about it as a unit, and ask when did it become widely viewed as a "thing," or you can talk about when the parts that eventually made up the thing came into being. Necessarily, the parts came into being before the thing of which they eventually were the parts. How much before is hard to say.


Say what? Mohammed is much more securely a historical character than Jesus, or than Gabriel, another stock character which Mohammed ripped off from surrounding cultures. Or am I to tremble when suggesting that Mo is historical and Gabriel is not?

David

Prince Charles is the Prince of Wales and Duke of Cornwall. He is not addressed as Duke; in fact, as top-ranking living male in his tribe, he is frequently called just "Charles." John Seymour is Duke of Somerset and not prince of anything. He is not called prince but is called Duke.

Charles and John, the Duke of Cornwall, left the party to have a smoke.

X Conclude: Charles is not a Duke.

Peter, in Paul's reckoning, is an apostle with portfolio, one of only two such people in Paul's writing (and the two portfolios, to the Jews and to the Gentiles, seem to be exhaustive). Nowhere is any James described as holding a portfolio, but a James is mentioned as having received the apostolic qualifcation - an appearance of the Lord (1 Corithians 15: 7).

Suppose Peter is both apostle with portfolio and apostle after loyal companionship with a natural Jesus, the latter station being styled "Brother of the Lord," and that James is apostle after loyal companionship with a natural Jesus, but without portfolio.

Peter and James, the Brother of the Lord, met with Paul when he visited Jerusalem.

X Conclude: Peter is not a Brother of the Lord

Where is the grammatical problem in either example sentence? The difficulty may be in your third premise:


"Brother of the Lord" is a noun phrase, and may have a meaning which cannot be inferred from the separate meanings of its parts. Charles, for example, isn't Welsh, but he is the Prince of Wales.

I don't know about Greek, but if Peter was also a "Brother Of The Lord" in English it should read: "Peter and James, the Brothers of the Lord"
 
"Brother of the Lord" is a noun phrase, and may have a meaning which cannot be inferred from the separate meanings of its parts. Charles, for example, isn't Welsh, but he is the Prince of Wales.
I must admit I simply can't see any similarity between these phrases. If James had a title "Brother of The Lord" and it meant "Brother in religious affiliation" then Peter and the others were also entitled to it, but are not addressed by Paul in that way.

If there were lots of princes of Wales, or potentially so, then your comparison would make sense. But there are not. Whatever "prince" and "Wales" might mean, the combination is a unique title, identifying a single person. He is also Lord High Steward of Scotland. But not Scottish. So what? As to your
meaning which cannot be inferred from the separate meanings of its parts
you remind me of Ernest Bevin the British Labour politician.
His health failing, Bevin reluctantly allowed himself to be moved to become Lord Privy Seal in March 1951. 'I am neither a Lord, nor a Privy, nor a Seal', he is said to have commented. He died the following month, still holding the key to his red box. His ashes are buried in Westminster Abbey.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Bevin
 
I notice too late that I gave Charles' duchy to John. My apologies to both.


Brainache

I don't know about Greek, but if Peter was also a "Brother Of The Lord" in English it should read: "Peter and James, the Brothers of the Lord"
Why should it? John and Charles are both Dukes, but I would generally not call Charles a Duke because he also holds a higher rank, so much higher that my reader might sometimes know to whom I referring without my mentioning any of his ranks at all.

Suppose that the example sentence appears in a story about two times I had met Prince Charles in London, leading up to a climactic third time when I publicly humiliated him in Akron, Ohio. The reader would, presumably, have a pretty good idea which Charles I was talking about, whenever his name appeared, what with him being the only Charles in the story and the point of the story being what a BFD I am for having slapped a really big big shot around.


Craig B

If James had a title "Brother of The Lord" and it meant "Brother in religious affiliation" then Peter and the others were also entitled to it, but are not addressed by Paul in that way.
And I don't see any relationship between that remark and anything I have argued.

I propose that "Brother of the Lord" is a noun phrase, in response to another poster's note that grammar needs to be examined. OK, game on. The meaning of a noun phrase is not necessarily or even by default determined by other ways any of its constituent nouns is used elsewhere. So, neither "one of the family members of Jesus" nor "brother in religious affiliation" is obligatory.

Paul uses the phrase twice, once in the singular, for James, and once in the plural, for some of the people whose wives travel with them. Peter is mentioned separarely on both occasions, and on neither occasion is there plausible concern that the reader would be at sea as to which 'Rocky' is meant. It does not follow that Peter is not a Brother of the Lord.

In examining whether or not he is, we may consider that 'Rocky' is already an epithet. This Rocky also holds another title from Paul, Apostle to the Jews, which nobody else does. Since that title is parallel to and complementary with a title Paul grants himself, Apostle to the Gentiles, then we may consider whether apostle with portfolio trumps any other kind of apostle for Paul.

If so, then like any author, Paul mightn't mention a lower rank held by an already unambiguously identifiable Peter, although he might mention the highest rank held by others who come up.

If there were lots of princes of Wales,
On information and belief, there are other princes besides Charles, just as Peter was not the only apostle with portfolio. There is no failure of parallelism to mention that of which Charles is the prince in explanatory matter, since no title at all appears in the example, just as with Peter.

He is also Lord High Steward of Scotland. But not Scottish. So what?
So, knowing the meanings of the individual words that appear in a noun phrase is sometimes uninformative, and can possibly be misleading, about the meaning of a noun phrase.

Thank you for that additional example. Finally, was there some error in Mr Bevin's discourse? If not,. then he seems to provide us a third example, one suggesting that what we can say of noun phrases generally is especially likely to be true of titles - that the whole phrase may be different in kind from the parts.

For a point you have professed not to grasp, you have furnished two fine examples of it.
 
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I notice too late that I gave Charles' duchy to John. My apologies to both.


Brainache


Why should it? John and Charles are both Dukes, but I would generally not call Charles a Duke because he also holds a higher rank, so much higher that my reader might sometimes know to whom I referring without my mentioning any of his ranks at all.

Suppose that the example sentence appears in a story about two times I had met Prince Charles in London, leading up to a climactic third time when I publicly humiliated him in Akron, Ohio. The reader would, presumably, have a pretty good idea which Charles I was talking about, whenever his name appeared, what with him being the only Charles in the story and the point of the story being what a BFD I am for having slapped a really big big shot around.


...

Because that would be the correct grammatical structure.

If Paul was saying that both Peter and James is a "Brother of the Lord" then in English it would be written: Peter and James, the brothers of the lord. If they were both Prince of Wales, it would say "Princes of Wales".

I'm only talking about the structure of the sentence, I have no idea what the rest of that is supposed to mean.
 
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I must admit I simply can't see any similarity between these phrases. If James had a title "Brother of The Lord" and it meant "Brother in religious affiliation" then Peter and the others were also entitled to it, but are not addressed by Paul in that way.

Hum.... unless James, as leader of the gang, perhaps, was the only one with the title.
 
Most Rabbis and Jewish theologians don't argue against the existence of Jesus but of his claim to be the Messiah or if you will Masiah.

You would think non-Messianic Jews would dismiss it merely by denying his existence. That they don't is problematic for anyone claiming Jesus as myth.

Most rabbis and Jewish theologians have grown up in a culture that assumed Jesus was real, just like everyone else.

BTW, current thought on Gnosticism is it started in the second century.

Interestingly some scholars see Paul's theology as a gnostic one, and has definite signs of doceticism. Which, if he is representative of a 1st century school of thought, pushes the roots of such stuff to the very beginnings (assuming christianity began with a Jesus).

There are many theologians in the world many of whom are not Christian. Of course just because the majority of theologians dismiss Jesus as myth is not proof of his existence but it should make one pause.

Pausing is good. Just as one should pause before assuming much of anything about Jesus based on the scant evidence and its ambiguity.

It is difficult to declare that Mohammed was real and therefore Islam and still make the proclamation Jesus never existed. Islam does not deny the existence of Jesus but denies his divinity. Again this is not proof Jesus existed but one can't make the argument Mohammed is real and Jesus is not without raising eyebrows.

One should pursue the truth of the matter without too much concern about the state of anyone's eyebrows.

One can only use historical methodology to affirm or deny the existence of Jesus of Nazareth just as one would any person born thousands of years ago. There is no other evidence.

Exactly.

Historian Dr Richard Carrier has written a great book Proving History on bible scholar methodology and ways to bring it into line with historical methodology.
 
Brainache

Because that would be the correct grammatical structure.
It is a correct grammatical structure, one among many, along with with what was actually written, not the correct grammatical structure, unique to the exclusion of all else, including what was actually written. There is no grammatical or syntactical issue, either way, with what Paul actually wrote.

If Paul was saying that both Peter and James is a "Brother of the Lord" ...
Why would Paul want to write that? The passage isn't a collection of biographical sketches, it's a brag that when Paul visited Jerusalem, he snubbed all the apostles there except two. He applies no second epithet at all to Rocky, whom he identifies in the same story (at 2: 7-9),

On the contrary, when they (Peter, James and John) saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter to the circumcised, for the one who worked in Peter for an apostolate to the circumcised worked also in me for the Gentiles, and when they recognized the grace bestowed upon me,
So, when Paul writes of his earlier adventure at 1: 18-19

I went up to Jerusalem to confer with Cephas and remained with him for fifteen days.But I did not see any other of the apostles, only James the brother of the Lord.
Paul tells his reader: I met only with my own peer, and one other guy whose eminence is second only to Rocky's and my own. Just because somebody saw the risen Christ, that's not enough for me to make the time to speak to them.

There's no grammatical problem here anywhere.

Belz...

Hum.... unless James, as leader of the gang, perhaps, was the only one with the title.
No, Paul uses the same noun phrase at 1 Corinthians 9: 5, in the plural.

There, too, Rocky is mentioned without a second epithet and distinctly from other apostles, as other apostles are mentioned distinctly from the Brothers of the Lord. As noted above, Rocky is an apostle, to Paul's satisfaction, despite being mentioned separately. It is thus possible that BoL's are a kind of apostle, and that Rocky is a particular BoL, just as he is a particular apostle.

ETA: BTW, there is nothing in Paul that designates James as the unique leader of the gang. He can, in Rocky's absence, send some men from Jerusalem to Antioch, who act like tools when they get there. That is subject to several interpretations, too.
 
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OK so it's plain for everyone to see that yet again you have absolutely no answer and cannot ever admit your constant mistakes in this subject.

Paul is very clearly talking about 500 brothers and sisters in belief.

What you have there is an absolutely undeniable example of Paul using the word "brothers" to mean brothers in their shared religious belief of Christ the Lord.

It was inescapable, but as so often with your posts, you still could not admit it even to yourself, even though it was obvious to everyone here that you could have no other genuine reply.

Your position throughout these threads has been one of constant self-delusion and denial of evidence which is undeniably stated directly in the very words of Paul’s letters ... the same letters and the same words that you are trying to claim as evidence of a living Jesus who Paul very plainly and quite certainly never did claim to know and never did claim that anyone else ever knew Jesus either, inc. “brother” James (whoever that “James” was).

An interesting discussion of Paul's use of the word 'brother' is found on the Vridar site where scholarship on early christianity is discussed:


"In the singular, I have been able to locate in the epistles and Revelation only two usages of the word “brother” having the clear meaning of “sibling”: a reference in 1 John to Cain as the murderer of his brother Abel, and the ascription heading the epistle of Jude: “Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James.” In the plural there is technically one, in 1 Timothy 5:2. As far as the world of the epistle writers is concerned, a “plain meaning” of “brother” equals the sense of “brethren” in a religious group; it is at least as natural as the sense of sibling."

<full article linked below>

http://vridar.org/2012/06/18/20-ear...-bart-ehrmans-case-against-mythicism-part-20/

Paul seems generally to use the word 'brother' in the spiritual sense, and to use it here in a carnal sense would go against Paul's notion of Jesus as a pre-existing divine being who once took on the mere appearance of a human to fool some demons.
 
proudfootz

Yes, even in Galatians, where this somewhat wispily smoking gun is to be found, Paul uses brother and brothers several times, we can go through them if we have to, always except here clearly meaning as companions, co-religionists, fellow something or other - not family member.

However.

Paul seems generally to use the word 'brother' in the spiritual sense, ...
Spiritual? It can mean that, but Paul also uses it in Galatians, even in the greeting, to mean flesh and blood people participating with other flesh and blood people in a temporal relationship.

So "carnal" doesn't make the distinction. "Familial" is what can be disputed easily. As for

... would go against Paul's notion of Jesus as a pre-existing divine being who once took on the mere appearance of a human to fool some demons.
I don't see that that is Paul's notion. Even from Ehrman, who supposedly likes Paul to be talking about an angel taking on human form, I'd love to see a quotation establishing the above as a fair representation of his hypothesis about Paul's intent.
 
proudfootz

Yes, even in Galatians, where this somewhat wispily smoking gun is to be found, Paul uses brother and brothers several times, we can go through them if we have to, always except here clearly meaning as companions, co-religionists, fellow something or other - not family member.

However.


Spiritual? It can mean that, but Paul also uses it in Galatians, even in the greeting, to mean flesh and blood people participating with other flesh and blood people in a temporal relationship.

So "carnal" doesn't make the distinction. "Familial" is what can be disputed easily.

I tried to be careful and use the word 'generally' to signify 'not exclusively', and the word 'spiritual' to signify the sort of fictive kinship used among fellow believers in contrast to a literal family member.

As for

"...would go against Paul's notion of Jesus as a pre-existing divine being who once took on the mere appearance of a human to fool some demons"

I don't see that that is Paul's notion. Even from Ehrman, who supposedly likes Paul to be talking about an angel taking on human form, I'd love to see a quotation establishing the above as a fair representation of his hypothesis about Paul's intent.

I haven't yet read Ehrman's new book How Jesus Became God, so I don't have a quote handy and am relying on reviewers to give a fair representation of his position.

But here's a link to Ehrman's blog that might give us a place to start:

http://ehrmanblog.org/pauls-view-of-jesus-as-an-angel/

It's difficult to pin down any idea attributed to Paul in one quotation - he does nor seem to be a very systematic writer - perhaps this is due to the apparent purpose of the letters to deal with controversies as they arise.

Just as those who take Paul to be a believer in a very human Jesus must take their evidence in dribs and drabs from the interpretation of a few isolated verses scattered among the heaps of verbiage (even discounting the known mis-attributed letters) anyone looking for clues as to what Paul believed must hunt for and interpret the stray phrase that might give us insight.
 
What makes you think Chrysostom is a reliable witness?

What makes you think Galatians 1.19 is historical when you admit Paul was a Liar.

Writings attributed to Papias, Jerome, the authors of gMark, gMatthew, gLuke and Acts are compatible with Chrysostom--there was NO apostle James who was known as an actual brother of Jesus.

The Pauline writer appears to be a Liar.

Brainache said:
We've already seen how he accuses Jews of eating babies and drinking blood as part of their religion, I don't think he is a great expert on 1st Century Palestine.

You have already ADMITTED that Paul was a Liar so I don't think Galatians 1.19 can be accepted without external corroboration.

The claim that the Apostle James was the Lord's brother in Galatians1.19 is NOT corroborated even by the Church writers.
 
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I don't see that that [Jesus as a pre-existing divine being who once took on the mere appearance of a human to fool some demons] is Paul's notion. Even from Ehrman, who supposedly likes Paul to be talking about an angel taking on human form, I'd love to see a quotation establishing the above as a fair representation of his hypothesis about Paul's intent.
A very different interpretation of Jesus is found in Romans 1.
3 concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead
 
eight bits wrote:

"I don't see that that [Jesus as a pre-existing divine being who once took on the mere appearance of a human to fool some demons] is Paul's notion. Even from Ehrman, who supposedly likes Paul to be talking about an angel taking on human form, I'd love to see a quotation establishing the above as a fair representation of his hypothesis about Paul's intent."

A very different interpretation of Jesus is found in Romans 1.

Quote:
3 concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead

Sometimes you have to wonder whether Paul had a coherent idea about Jesus...
 
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