I never said the word Christian was synonymous with "magician".
Yes, that was asserted.
Even in the 1st century, since the time of Claudius, c 41-54 CE, magicians and their followers were called Christians.
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dejudge said:
The Jesus story was not initially fabricated for a new religion but was an EXPLANATION [propaganda] for the destruction of the Temple of the Jewish God.
That would contradict the other explanation given by Josephus that the Zealots were in contest with the High Priest and let open the Temple to the Edomites who then slew Ananus ben Ananus and then killed many citizens in jest, starting an outbreak of civil war which Rome ended with destruction.
I should not mistake if I said that the death of Ananus was the beginning of the destruction of the city, and that from this very day may be dated the overthrow of her wall, and the ruin of her affairs, whereon they saw their high priest, and the procurer of their preservation, slain in the midst of their city.
By these motives Ananus encouraged the multitude to go against the zealots, although he knew how difficult it would be to disperse them, because of their multitude, and their youth, and the courage of their souls; but chiefly because of their consciousness of what they had done, since they would not yield, as not so much as hoping for pardon at the last for those their enormities.
1. THIS advice pleased the Idumeans, and they ascended through the city to the temple. The zealots were also in great expectation of their coming, and earnestly waited for them. When therefore these were entering, they also came boldly out of the inner temple, and mixing themselves among the Idumeans, they attacked the guards; and some of those that were upon the watch, but were fallen asleep, they killed as they were asleep; but as those that were now awakened made a cry, the whole multitude arose, and in the amazement they were in caught hold of their arms immediately, and betook themselves to their own defense; and so long as they thought they were only the zealots who attacked them, they went on boldly, as hoping to overpower them by their numbers; but when they saw others pressing in upon them also, they perceived the Idumeans were got in; and the greatest part of them laid aside their arms, together with their courage, and betook themselves to lamentations. But some few of the younger sort covered themselves with their armor, and valiantly received the Idumeans, and for a while protected the multitude of old men. Others, indeed, gave a signal to those that were in the city of the calamities they were in; but when these were also made sensible that the Idumeans were come in, none of them durst come to their assistance, only they returned the terrible echo of wailing, and lamented their misfortunes. A great howling of the women was excited also, and every one of the guards were in danger of being killed. The zealots also joined in the shouts raised by the Idumeans; and the storm itself rendered the cry more terrible; nor did the Idumeans spare any body; for as they are naturally a most barbarous and bloody nation, and had been distressed by the tempest, they made use of their weapons against those that had shut the gates against them, and acted in the same manner as to those that supplicated for their lives, and to those that fought them, insomuch that they ran through those with their swords who desired them to remember the relation there was between them, and begged of them to have regard to their common temple. Now there was at present neither any place for flight, nor any hope of preservation; but as they were driven one upon another in heaps, so were they slain. Thus the greater part were driven together by force, as there was now no place of retirement, and the murderers were upon them; and, having no other way, threw themselves down headlong into the city; whereby, in my opinion, they underwent a more miserable destruction than that which they avoided, because that was a voluntary one. And now the outer temple was all of it overflowed with blood; and that day, as it came on, they saw eight thousand five hundred dead bodies there.
2. But the rage of the Idumeans was not satiated by these slaughters; but they now betook themselves to the city, and plundered every house, and slew every one they met; and for the other multitude, they esteemed it needless to go on with killing them, but they sought for the high priests, and the generality went with the greatest zeal against them; and as soon as they caught them they slew them, and then standing upon their dead bodies, in way of jest, upbraided Ananus with his kindness to the people, and Jesus with his speech made to them from the wall. Nay, they proceeded to that degree of impiety, as to cast away their dead bodies without burial, although the Jews used to take so much care of the burial of men, that they took down those that were condemned and crucified, and buried them before the going down of the sun. I should not mistake if I said that the death of Ananus was the beginning of the destruction of the city, and that from this very day may be dated the overthrow of her wall, and the ruin of her affairs, whereon they saw their high priest, and the procurer of their preservation, slain in the midst of their city. He was on other accounts also a venerable, and a very just man; and besides the grandeur of that nobility, and dignity, and honor of which he was possessed, he had been a lover of a kind of parity, even with regard to the meanest of the people; he was a prodigious lover of liberty, and an admirer of a democracy in government; and did ever prefer the public welfare before his own advantage, and preferred peace above all things; for he was thoroughly sensible that the Romans were not to be conquered. He also foresaw that of necessity a war would follow, and that unless the Jews made up matters with them very dexterously, they would be destroyed; to say all in a word, if Ananus had survived, they had certainly compounded matters; for he was a shrewd man in speaking and persuading the people, and had already gotten the mastery of those that opposed his designs, or were for the war. And the Jews had then put abundance of delays in the way of the Romans, if they had had such a general as he was. Jesus was also joined with him; and although he was inferior to him upon the comparison, he was superior to the rest; and I cannot but think that it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city, and was resolved to purge his sanctuary by fire, that he cut off these their great defenders and well-wishers, while those that a little before had worn the sacred garments, and had presided over the public worship; and had been esteemed venerable by those that dwelt on the whole habitable earth when they came into our city, were cast out naked, and seen to be the food of dogs and wild beasts. And I cannot but imagine that virtue itself groaned at these men's case, and lamented that she was here so terribly conquered by wickedness. And this at last was the end of Ananus and Jesus.
Jesus, the eldest of the high priests next to Artanus
Jesus the son of Gamalas
There was no reason required to create an elaborate messianic hoax to justify the Roman actions.
Justification was already well in hand.
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dejudge said:
It was AFTER people started to believed the propaganda that a New Religion was formed and the story was changed to include Salvation and Remission of Sins by Sacrifice when no such thing is in the early story of Jesus in gMark.
In the short gMark, there is no claim that Jesus would start a new religion and abolish the Laws of the Jews as found in the later Gospels and Pauline Corpus.
All claims that Jesus died for Remission of Sins by Sacrifice and the resurrection was fabricated AFTER the Jesus story in gMark.
The author of the short gMark only knew a story that Jesus would be delivered up by the Jews, that he would be killed and resurrected.
The author of the short gMark repeated the same claim three times in Mark 8, Mark 9 and Mark 10.
However, as soon as gJohn and the Pauline Corpus are examined, the author claimed Jesus gave himself for the sins of mankind which is not found anywhere in the short gMark.
According to you, we cannot trust citations from any part of the Bible.
the HJ argument is inherently extremely weak and unsustainable BECAUSE it is based almost entirely on the Bible --a source of forgeries, fiction and events that most likely did not happen..
You seem not to understand that the very HJ argument must inherently show that the Christian authors of the NT had no regard for truth and were involved in forgeries.
the NT is filled with forgeries and falsely attributed writings composed far later than was claimed by apologetics.
I must notify you that all writings which mention the Pauline Corpus, Acts of the Apostles and the Four Gospels are extremely questionable and may be forgeries or falsely attributed.
In fact, even the Gospels in the Canon are products of forgeries, fiction, implausibility and are not eyewitness accounts.
Do you not understand that the Gospels and indeed the NT are a compilation of forgeries?
The NT is the flagship of forgeries of the ancient world.
The NT is a compilation of forgeries and fiction including all the Gospels and Pauline Corpus.
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There was supposed prophecies that Jesus was to be born in Bethlehem but of course there would be no records of Jesus in Bethlehem so the authors claimed he was born in Bethlehem but left just after he was born.
Not according to you.
There is no evidence whatsoever that any Jew worshiped Jesus of Nazareth as a God or believed that he abolished the Laws of the Jews before c 70 CE.
