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Merged AZ Gov Signs Immigration Bill

The common "jobs that americans won't do" myth is a sad example of people not understanding how a free market works.
 
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Infoexcavator said:
The common "jobs that americans won't do" myth is a sad example of people not understanding how a free market works.
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Are you referring to how the free market [the current version in the 'States] creates the toxic atmosphere where bottom line trumps Joe the Plumber's social welfare? And his wife - what about her? Jane the fishermam' down by the *gulp* of mexico?
 
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To Juniversal and Kopji:

Immigrating legally is a long and difficult process. Normally, the intending immigrant would need a family member who already has legal status, either US citizen or lawful permanent resident. A US citizen can file an immigrant visa for a spouse, parent, child, or sibling. A lawful permanent resident (i.e green card holder) can file for a spouse or child. Even if the visa is approved, however, it may be unusable for period of time. The State Department only issues a limited number of visas for each category of relationship (referred to as perference categories). Simply put, you're waiting behind all the people who filed before you waiting for your number to be called. This can take an exceptionally long time. IIRC, petitions by US citizens for their siblings in Mexico are only current, or usable, if filed in 1992 or earlier. Someone filing today for a sibling is going to have a long wait.

Of course, there are other ways of getting permanent status in the United States. Asylum and cancellation of removal are two examples that eventually lead to lawful permanent residency. Of course, both of these forms of relief have their own prereqs that can be tough if not impossible to meet. Another option is employment based immigration, but this carries its own burdens.

As for citizenship, a person can be a US citizen by birth, acquisition (your parents had USC status when you were born outside the US), derivation (you were born an alien, but one of your parents naturalizated), and naturalization (you have lawful permanent residence for specified period and then file an application to naturalize). Note that this a very simplified version of citizenship law. The laws on acquisition and derivation have changed several times and are counter-intuitive.
 
KingMerv00 said:
Let me try a counter example.

A racist author writes a law that increases penalties for child molestating. He thinks most child molesters are black and he wants to use the law to put more "Negro" men behind bars. He has racist intent. That does not mean one should automatically oppose the law on the grounds of racism. Correct?
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Correct, but it is almost certainly a fact that the enforcers of the law will be influenced by the context of creation of the law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_(social_sciences)
 
Neally said:
Not for some here. The important thing is that the drafters be pegged as racist, the governor for signing it, police for enforcing it, and everyone supporting it, oh and not to mention the law itself. Racists one and all.
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That's just a description of the situation, not what "some" here want.
 
pgwenthold said:
But the people of Postville were the ones who paid the price, as did the workers. The friggin plant IS STILL IN BUSINESS! They didn't crack down on the employer in any meaningful way at all. They destroyed a town.
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So it's all robots working in the plant now?

Didn't some of the owners go to prison? And are you saying the company should have been disbanded completely, and that would somehow help the town?

ETA: BTW, in terms of "taking jobs away from Americans," you'd have to be mental to think that happened there. I know folks who tried to work there in high school, and after. They all quit in a month, because it wasn't worth it. Granted, if these companies were willing to actually pay a reasonably wage, they would be able to get a lot more people willing to do it, but for minimum wage and no benefits, they don't get too many people submitting applications.
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Of course it's not worth it. It's not worth it because all the other plants are also hiring illegal workers, and this drives wages in the industry downward. As even you say, at some point higher wages would attract legal workers.

And frankly, I think importing dirt-poor and desperate workers you can exploit and toss away as soon as your done with them is not good for the economy. Don't ever complain about the wealth distribution in this country if you support importing cheap labor while we have no shortage of domestic labor willing to work but at a higher wage.
 
It's not an opinion that those who introduced and help author the bill are racists.
 
Legalduck said:
To Juniversal and Kopji:

Immigrating legally is a long and difficult process. Normally, the intending immigrant would need a family member who already has legal status, either US citizen or lawful permanent resident. A US citizen can file an immigrant visa for a spouse, parent, child, or sibling. A lawful permanent resident (i.e green card holder) can file for a spouse or child. Even if the visa is approved, however, it may be unusable for period of time. The State Department only issues a limited number of visas for each category of relationship (referred to as perference categories). Simply put, you're waiting behind all the people who filed before you waiting for your number to be called. This can take an exceptionally long time. IIRC, petitions by US citizens for their siblings in Mexico are only current, or usable, if filed in 1992 or earlier. Someone filing today for a sibling is going to have a long wait.

Of course, there are other ways of getting permanent status in the United States. Asylum and cancellation of removal are two examples that eventually lead to lawful permanent residency. Of course, both of these forms of relief have their own prereqs that can be tough if not impossible to meet. Another option is employment based immigration, but this carries its own burdens.

As for citizenship, a person can be a US citizen by birth, acquisition (your parents had USC status when you were born outside the US), derivation (you were born an alien, but one of your parents naturalizated), and naturalization (you have lawful permanent residence for specified period and then file an application to naturalize). Note that this a very simplified version of citizenship law. The laws on acquisition and derivation have changed several times and are counter-intuitive.
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Sounds like gaining citizenship is no easy task to say the least. I wonder how much of a factor it really is. Maybe if immigrants didn't have to jump through so many hoops to gain citizenship they'd be much more inclined to migrate here legitimately. (Of course) not to say that granting any and every immigrant citizenship is the answer though.
 
Juniversal said:
Sounds like gaining citizenship is no easy task to say the least. I wonder how much of a factor it really is. Maybe if immigrants didn't have to jump through so many hoops to gain citizenship they'd be much more inclined to migrate here legitimately. (Of course) not to say that granting any and every immigrant citizenship is the answer though.
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I think you're on the right track. I think this is part of what comprehensive immigration reform (at the federal level!) should include.

As an aside, one of my favorite illegal immigrant anecdotes is the story of Dr. Q.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/05/18/assignment_america/main2827109.shtml

Here's a guy who saves lives routinely, and he entered the U.S. as an illegal.

(I realize this makes no more of an argument than the "pro-life" argument that the fetus you abort might have been the next Mozart or Einstein, so keep in mind that I have outlined legal and practical arguments against this bill in this thread. This is more a story intended to point out that "illegals" are real people too.)
 
thaiboxerken said:
It's not an opinion that those who introduced and help author the bill are racists.
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Maybe so or maybe not, but it's really irrelevant to the question of whether or not this is a good law.

I think it's bad law, and I frankly don't think it has much chance of surviving the various legal challenges. (At this point, I think Escobar's suit might be among the strongest. It's pretty hard to argue that the law would actually help the police do their jobs when it seems that it will have the opposite effect.)
 
thaiboxerken said:
It's not an opinion that those who introduced and help author the bill are racists.
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As were the people who invented the modern limited-access highway. Will you be boycotting the interstates now ken?
 
Sounds like gaining citizenship is no easy task to say the least. I wonder how much of a factor it really is. Maybe if immigrants didn't have to jump through so many hoops to gain citizenship they'd be much more inclined to migrate here legitimately. (Of course) not to say that granting any and every immigrant citizenship is the answer though.
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There have a dozen or so "legislative fixes" that have passed that tried to give a faster route to lawful status. There was the Special Agricultural Worker (SAW) program and legalization program in the late 80s and early 90s. 245(i) was another fix that ended in 2001. NACARA was designed as a fast track for aliens from Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala and the former Eastern Bloc countries. HRIFA was designed to help Haitians.

In other words, Congress has tried a lot of different things. Unfortunately, much the legislation is poorly thought out or a quick fix designed only to address a political need (i.e NACARA was motivated by the collapse of communism. A lot of asylum seekers saw their claims vanish as their applications were awaiting processing). Immigration law is messy as hell and its be called the most complicated area of law second only to the tax code. The spot-welds by Congress have just added to the confusion (though, I would say that the Child Citizenship Act is an exception).

With the political climate very charged right now, I don't have a lot faith that any type of immigration reform will make things better.

Also, although a lot people talk about a path to citizenship, usually their refering to a path to lawful status.
 
WildCat said:
As were the people who invented the modern limited-access highway. Will you be boycotting the interstates now ken?
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Were the highways built specifically to deport brown people? The fact that races is a factor that can be used to suspect illegal immigration status tells me that this bill is racist in design.
 
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thaiboxerken said:
Were the highways built specifically to deport brown people? The fact that races is a factor that can be used to suspect illegal immigration status tells me that this bill is racist in design.
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I'm pretty sure the brown people who voted this bill into law weren't planning on deporting themselves
 
thaiboxerken said:
Can you name those people, the brown people that voted this into law?
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MONTENEGRO.gif


How about Steve Montenegro?
 
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