Merged AZ Gov Signs Immigration Bill

[Ausmerican]

Where are your papers citizen?

Didnt see a thread on this yet. If there is one merge or whatever.

So today fill in Governor Brewer signed the new immigration bill into law here in Arizona.

http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/04/az-gov-will-sign-immigration-bill.php?ref=fpa

In part the bill states:

The legislation requires law enforcement to demand immigration papers from anyone who they have a "reasonable suspicion" is in the country illegally.

But no need to worry:

She said she will not tolerate racial discrimination or profiling. Brewer also said she had worked with legislators to make sure the bill protects civil rights.

Nothing contradictory there.

In other local news it is reported that Joe Arpaio has smiled for the first time this year since President Obama took Governor Napolitano away to Washington.

 

[Darth Rotor]

The protestors in the capital today: think about their premise.

They were angry that a law was passed that required people to obey the law, and called on law enforcement to do something about laws being broken.

Now, why are the citizens angry about this?

Share with me.

The issue one can't get around is the problem of racial profiling ... I am curious how the governor can deal with that.

DR

 

[Ausmerican]

Darth, I think much of the anger boils down to not feeling that the end justifies the means.

Where does your right to privacy end and the right of the police to ask you for proof that you are a citizen start? And, as you say, the racial profiling element is unavoidable.

I am an Australian living in AZ. What are the odds I will be asked for ID even though I am not a citizen? Low I would say.
On the other hand one of my best friends is of Hispanic descent, born and raised in Brooklyn and on army bases and doesn't speak a word of Spanish. His chances are probably higher than mine.

 

[quixotecoyote]

I don't see the problem in principle.

Illegal immigration is (wait for it) illegal.

Allowing cops to enforce the law is not exactly an earth shattering concept.

I share some concerns about civil right violations, and I am confused about what papers they'd need to see. I could show my driver's license, but I don't generally carry my passport and birth certificate with me.

 

[Policenaut]

I don't know about the papers either. Maybe the police officers issue some kind of ticket saying they have to report back to the police station in X number of hours or days with the immigration papers. It seems highly unlikely anyone would carry that stuff on their person at all times.

 

[Ausmerican]

Apart from the civil rights issues and the obvious profiling the two main problems I see that may be coming rom this is the warrantless arrest on suspicion clause and the court costs.
This looks like it is going to make for a lot of court cases, both by and against the state. Who is going to pay the costs? An illegal day laborer making less than $5 an hour? Doubtful. More likely he will be going back across the border on on the states dime and the court costs will be covered by same.

As an aside regarding the civil rights issues, there are already a couple of trucking companies talking about a boycott of the state. This can possibly raise the price of the large amount of Mexican grown produce trucked in through Nogales. Several conventions have also discussed taking their business and money elsewhere for the same reason.

I have no idea what the papers discussed entailed however I did read that immigrants have to register with Homeland Security and get a registration card and that it will be a state crime not to do so. That is irritating. I already have a green card. Now I have to try and figure out what I need to do and also wonder if there will be a fee attached to this registration.

Lastly I wonder what Republicans think this is going to do to their chances vis a vis the hispanic vote in the next elections here.

 

[MG1962]

The protestors in the capital today: think about their premise.

They were angry that a law was passed that required people to obey the law, and called on law enforcement to do something about laws being broken.

Now, why are the citizens angry about this?

Share with me.

The issue one can't get around is the problem of racial profiling ... I am curious how the governor can deal with that.

DR

Well according to the coverage I have seen, two things stick out

1/ Police can stop you on suspicion and demand to see your papers (This has to sailing very close to the 4th Ammendment)

2/ Even if you are legal, but are not carrying your papers, you can be subject to prosecution.

 

[MG1962]

I have no idea what the papers discussed entailed however I did read that immigrants have to register with Homeland Security and get a registration card and that it will be a state crime not to do so. That is irritating. I already have a green card. Now I have to try and figure out what I need to do and also wonder if there will be a fee attached to this registration.

Is it possible they are refering to the Green Card. I can not see anyway a state could demand Homeland Security issue exta documents just to satisfy a state requirement

Or....like here in Kansas they may tie it to the drivers licence. You have to show proof of permanent residency before they will issue you a licence

 

[barrymore]

In theory, I am a proponent of profiling, but the practical consequences of such polices usually result in some hill-jack harassing a group of young African-American kids walking home from school. I could see something similar happening in this situation (Patrolman sees a Latino man drive by, has a bone to pick due to some deep-rooted insecurity, and harassment ensues). So I am going to have to say "NO" on this one.

 

[pipelineaudio]

The issue one can't get around is the problem of racial profiling ... I am curious how the governor can deal with that.

DR

Have you seen the actual wording? There's no letter or reason for racial profiling in it. There are so many Arizonans of hispanic origin any amount of racial profiling would take more man hours than we have cacti spines. Never mind that so many arizonans consider themselves "mexican" in one form or another, no matter what they look like.

What does a mexican look like anyway? Red hair and freckles like the irish? Tan and leathery like the cicilians? Large and asian like the navajo? Good luck writing this profile out.

No one, in any part of the country except the border states thinks anything of asking for proof of citizenship. We do it all the time in so many contexts. I wish we could see this sort of uproar when the Visa slaves decide they dont want to work for peanuts anymore and all the high falutin' folk scream to send them back to where they came from.

Arizona can no longer afford to foot the bill for the benefit of the rest of the nation on cheap goods and services investments. This crisis has been in shut down levels since 1994 and been getting steadily worse. While the rest of the country was living in the hopefulness and prosperity of the clinton years, arizona was sinking into the mud

 

[Ausmerican]

No one, in any part of the country except the border states thinks anything of asking for proof of citizenship. We do it all the time in so many contexts.

Out of curiosity, what contexts?

 

[332nd]

Hmmm... I wonder how this is going to effect people like me. I'm often confused for Hispanic yet I'm a US citizen so I have no immigration papers. (and not Hispanic...)

 

[MG1962]

No one, in any part of the country except the border states thinks anything of asking for proof of citizenship.

Yes but that is when you go for a job or need your SNN - If I am walking down the street in Arizona, police can pull and say "Hey Aussie, prove you should be here"

 

[WildCat]

Well according to the coverage I have seen, two things stick out

1/ Police can stop you on suspicion and demand to see your papers (This has to sailing very close to the 4th Ammendment)

2/ Even if you are legal, but are not carrying your papers, you can be subject to prosecution.

How is this any different from being asked to see your license, registration, and proof of insurance during a traffic stop? Sometimes they do this via roadblock using DUIs as an excuse.

 

[barrymore]

How is this any different from being asked to see your license, registration, and proof of insurance during a traffic stop? Sometimes they do this via roadblock using DUIs as an excuse.

I need some help on this as I am unfamiliar with the exact laws as it pertains to surrendering identity + associated documents, but I know that when it comes to license suspensions & stuff of that nature (such as declining breathalyzer), licenses are an administrative privilege and can be pretty much revoked/screwed with across the board.

This situation might be different.

 

[WildCat]

I need some help on this as I am unfamiliar with the exact laws as it pertains to surrendering identity + associated documents, but I know that when it comes to license suspensions & stuff of that nature (such as declining breathalyzer), licenses are an administrative privilege and can be pretty much revoked/screwed with across the board.

This situation might be different.

It's also a privilege for foreigners to enter the country. There is no Constitutional or legislative right to enter the United States if you're not a citizen.

Violating (some) driving laws or immigration laws are criminal offenses.

 

[Bikewer]

Being in law enforcement, and from a state with very strong anti "profiling" laws....I wonder how this can be managed in a reasonable way.
I suppose they could just routinely ask everyone for some proof that they are legal residents.... Other than my driver's license with my address on same I'd have a hard time showing any.
As pointed out there is a very large population of very legal folks who happen to be of hispanic origin.....What would be the officer's "probable cause?" I wonder as well if officers will be directed to check the legal status of other foriegn groups? East Indians, Africans, folks from the Middle East, Asians?

That there is a problem with illegal immigration appears undeniable, but various pundits disagree as to how much of a problem it is. Anthony Bourdain says that if all the illegals were deported from New York City, the restauraunt industry would collapse.
These people are finding jobs here, and normally jobs that citizens appear unwilling to take, despite 10% unemployment.
The percentage of these illegals involved in illegal activities other than looking for work appears to be rather small....
Yet the approach that's popular appears to be building walls and sending the National Guard to the border....

 

[WildCat]

That there is a problem with illegal immigration appears undeniable, but various pundits disagree as to how much of a problem it is. Anthony Bourdain says that if all the illegals were deported from New York City, the restauraunt industry would collapse.
These people are finding jobs here, and normally jobs that citizens appear unwilling to take, despite 10% unemployment.
The percentage of these illegals involved in illegal activities other than looking for work appears to be rather small....
Yet the approach that's popular appears to be building walls and sending the National Guard to the border....

Maybe you'd see the problem if your department started recruiting illegal immigrants to become police officers at half the pay. Then they offer to allow you to stay... at half the pay and no benefits. You say no and quit, and then they say "well we can't find any Americans to do this job, we have to have more immigration to fill these jobs Americans won't do".

Americans will do any job if it pays well enough. Illegal immigration drives down wages in agriculture, construction, landscaping... in whatever industries they're employed.

I remmeber a few years back during the Prop 187 thing a California farmer saying that Americans won't work in his fields, even though he was paying $10/hr. That's because the market demands wages be higher than $10/hr, after all you could work in McDonald's for $10/hr and not have to work in the hot sun bent over all day. If he paid $15 or $20/hr, he would have no trouble finding legal workers.

Those who support illegal immigration "to do the jobs Americans won't" are ony doing one thing - exploiting foreign workers for their own selfish benefit.

There is no such thing as a job Americans won't do, you just have to pay the market wage.

 

[Alt+F4]

1/ Police can stop you on suspicion and demand to see your papers (This has to sailing very close to the 4th Ammendment)

2/ Even if you are legal, but are not carrying your papers, you can be subject to prosecution.

What are these "papers" that folks in Arizona are supposed to be carrying? The only form of ID I carry on my person is my driver's license, which doesn't mention my "status". Are people in Arizona now required to carry something else?

 

[WildCat]

What are these "papers" that folks in Arizona are supposed to be carrying? The only form of ID I carry on my person is my driver's license, which doesn't mention my "status". Are people in Arizona now required to carry something else?

You have to be a legal resident to get a driver's license. A valid d/l or state ID should be enough proof. And the overwhelming majority of police contacts with civilians are traffic stops.