Automatons

[Toady]

Then what do you mean? You used the term "automaton" to mean something. You're talking about something that is lacking if you lack a soul, otherwise you would have framed your question the opposite way, "All you dualists who believe in a soul, what do you think the soul adds since everything else we know about the human mind can be explained by the complex structures in the human body?"

In other words, the fact that believing a human is a soulless, physical object is something to be "grappled" with, implies that believing we have souls would not be something you have any difficulty with. (I'm not assuming you believe in a soul--but you are asking a question that's based on the notion that having a soul is less problematic than not having one.)

The thing to be grappled with was the idea of non-existence, the lack of a point to life, and the realization that me, you, and everyone else are physical robots going through the motions. I know people keep arguing that the point to life is to experience it and make an impact, but that experience and that impact also don't matter. Eventually, I'll no longer exist, and neither will anybody I've impacted, so it may as well have not happened. The ultimate logical conclusion is that there's no point to live.

I just wanted to know how people dealt with those emotions, if at all. Some people see nothing to grapple with, and that's cool. I wish it was that easy for me to be happy as a pointless robot in a pointless universe. I see the world as a soulless, automatic process that has no relevance, importance, or value.

The reason I expressed regret over using the word "automaton" is that some people got into a debate over what the definition of one is. Substitute "robot," "machine," "physical process," "p-zombie," or any other automatic entity if you so choose. Some reject the idea that we are automatic, but I think that's a coping mechanism. The thought that we're just talking meat with shoes makes existence seem harsh and pointless.

As for qualia, our brains evolved empathy of others' experiences for social purposes, which also gives us empathy and perception of our own. It's like saying that because you can remember the hamburger you ate yesterday, the hamburger must still exist. Memory and perception are brain functions. Qualia is a red herring.

I fail to see the necessity of some invisible entity being in posession of our bodies in order for us to have free will.

I also regret using the phrase "ramifications of being an atheist," because it sounded like I was being skeptical of atheism. I am an agnostic and was not arguing for the existence of a soul. I was discussing the reaction a logical being would have to being acutely aware that it is a robot in a pointless universe.

 

[westprog]

It might seem that way. I however find the distinction fundamentally unsound (as you probably know from my earlier posts already). I.e., the mistake is to create the distinction in the first place.

Perhaps you fall into a third category, then.

 

[rocketdodger]

I think the fundamental philosophical difference is between people who think that the feeling between Miss Kitt and her Kitt-en is objectively real, and those who think it is a subjective fiction in an essentially meaningless universe.

Typical dualist strawman...

 

[Nick227]

The thing to be grappled with was the idea of non-existence, the lack of a point to life, and the realization that me, you, and everyone else are physical robots going through the motions. I know people keep arguing that the point to life is to experience it and make an impact, but that experience and that impact also don't matter. Eventually, I'll no longer exist, and neither will anybody I've impacted, so it may as well have not happened. The ultimate logical conclusion is that there's no point to live.

You can look at it that we are "just going through the motions," but no one knows where those motions are going. I mean, death is just one of those things. The fact that you are going to die one day doesn't mean that you can't act now to try and change your life, or that of others, to how you want it.

Humanity has arrived at its current juncture in space and time through natural selection, but that does not mean that you are powerless. Neither does that mean that you cannot drive it in a specific direction. Spiritual philosophies often get a lot of flak, sometimes imo quite rightly, but that doesn't mean that they don't work. Maybe it's possible to experience other realms, or this one more deeply. You might not be able to factor that in genetically, it might not have an evolutionary advantage, but it's certainly possible memetically. Genes are not the only replicators. The battle for the future takes place ongoingly.

You can also make space for a big X Factor. It's easy for the mind to convince itself that it knows it all, but there are many loopholes in theory we have no way of currently assessing. We don't know how reality really is. We don't know if our phenomenological world is just the tiniest chink of light scraping in from a vast unseen luminescence.

Understanding the mind means you have the power to take responsibility for how you see things.

Nick

 

[westprog]

Typical dualist strawman...

I think that even if you don't read the books you don't like, you need to accept that some people don't agree with you.

 

[rocketdodger]

I think that even if you don't read the books you don't like, you need to accept that some people don't agree with you.

...and another typical dualist strawman... keep 'em comin, westprog!

 

[westprog]

I won't waste my time actually reading his book, based on all I have read about it

I will mention that even if fully satisfied that the Penrose central idea is wrong, it is still well worth while reading his books. I don't know of anyone capable of covering such a wide range of topics in such detail.

a pedagogical tour de force, with some dazzling new ways of illuminating the central themes of science ... His discussion of phase spaces, for instance, and his development of the rationale for the second law of thermodynamics, are particularly refreshing.

 

[cyborg]

I'm completely at a loss to understand why Toady thinks that somehow those things don't matter if the underlying cause is biologic.

Probably because of the fact that this leads to Dark Knowledge™ - such that I could use to rewire your brain and make you hate your child; and that making you feel that emotion would be as trivial as making you feel love. So what difference does it make that you feel one or the other?

 

[rocketdodger]

I will mention that even if fully satisfied that the Penrose central idea is wrong, it is still well worth while reading his books. I don't know of anyone capable of covering such a wide range of topics in such detail.

Fair point, and I totally agree with you. In fact, I also hold the opinion that one should read what one disagrees with, because it can only make you more knowledgeable.

In this case, though, I have so much other stuff to read, and so little time to do it...

 

[westprog]

Fair point, and I totally agree with you. In fact, I also hold the opinion that one should read what one disagrees with, because it can only make you more knowledgeable.

It's by challenging our opinions that we either change or confirm them.

In this case, though, I have so much other stuff to read, and so little time to do it...

There's no arguing with that. A sad fact of our finite lives is that most of us will never read a fraction of what we think we should or would like to read.

For some of us, embarassingly, we won't get to read all the books we own, even.

 

[Toady]

Whatever the process, it is my life, and I enjoy it. It is my daughter's life, and I cherish it. If my experience of Self and Life is an 'emergent quality' of my brain, that doesn't make my experience of it any less real. If it is the result of evolutionary pressure that makes valuing one's offspring a desireable trait, that does not diminish my love for her.

I'm completely at a loss to understand why Toady thinks that somehow those things don't matter if the underlying cause is biologic.

It's really two issues that disturb me. The first is the thought that there is no reason to regard a human's emotions at all. If humans are robots, what's to stop us from exploiting them for our own gains? Why consider their feelings at all?

The second is that there's no point to anything because we cease to exist. It doesn't really matter what you do in life or what impact you have because the universe doesn't care either way.

 

[lupus_in_fabula]

It's really two issues that disturb me. The first is the thought that there is no reason to regard a human's emotions at all. If humans are robots, what's to stop us from exploiting them for our own gains? Why consider their feelings at all?

The second is that there's no point to anything because we cease to exist. It doesn't really matter what you do in life or what impact you have because the universe doesn't care either way.

Would you rather cease to exist right now or keep pondering on your perceived purposelessness of the universe, despite apparent feelings of unease regarding the latter chose?

 

[Nick227]

It's really two issues that disturb me. The first is the thought that there is no reason to regard a human's emotions at all. If humans are robots, what's to stop us from exploiting them for our own gains? Why consider their feelings at all?

The second is that there's no point to anything because we cease to exist. It doesn't really matter what you do in life or what impact you have because the universe doesn't care either way.

If humans were robots they wouldn't have emotions. Anyway, emotions are equally deterministic or random as other phenomena, according to materialism. What stops us exploiting people, finally, is empathy, or laws created by people with empathy.

Determinism doesn't have to make you miserable. It's not like someone out there has a script and you're just following it. You can change, if you actually want to. Maybe try living a bit more in the moment.

Nick

 

[Toady]

Would you rather cease to exist right now or keep pondering on your perceived purposelessness of the universe, despite apparent feelings of unease regarding the latter chose?

Ceasing to exist right now would certainly avoid a lot of pointless pain and effort. But then I would miss out on The Sims 3 next February. Life is tough...

 

[westprog]

Ceasing to exist right now would certainly avoid a lot of pointless pain and effort. But then I would miss out on The Sims 3 next February. Life is tough...

So the purpose of being is waiting for the next the-same-thing-but-a-little-cooler software upgrade? Shut down the forum, riddle of existence solved.