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Australia's Gun Problem

arthwollipot

Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
arthwollipot
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
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Some of us can occasionally be guilty of holding up Australia as a model for good gun policy. Unfortunately, it's usually not true.

Coalition accused of undermining senate inquiry into illegal firearms market

Coalition senators have been accused of "kowtowing" to the gun lobby after dismissing the bulk of the recommendations from a Senate inquiry into the illegal firearms market in Australia.

The inquiry, initiated by Greens Senator Penny Wright, found there is very little accurate data about the number of illicit guns in Australia and how they get into the black market, making it nearly impossible to estimate the scale of the problem.

The committee has made several recommendations including more funding for law enforcement agencies to tackle gun crime, nationally consistent gun registration and storage requirements and a rolling gun amnesty.

However, Coalition senators on the committee including Ian MacDonald, Linda Reynolds, Bridget McKenzie and Liberal Democratic Party Senator David Leyonhjelm issued a dissenting report accusing the Greens of trying to demonise licensed and responsible firearms owners.

Senator Wright said while she was disappointed, it was a "politicised inquiry" right from the start.
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One of the biggest problems australia has with guns at the moment is because of the constant demonising of firearms, not enough people have them at a time when farmers could really use a hand. There's a massive fox/feral cat/feral dog/etc problem looming and nobody is doing anything because apparently guns can only be used to kill people.

Sure, the bad guys shouldnt have easy access to them, and crazy people shouldnt be issued licenses, but guns are a useful tool to solve *hard* problems that nobody seems to care about from the comfort of their Subiaco apartments.
 
It would be a much bigger problem if guns were readily available legally and not highly restricted as they are now.
 
theprestige said:
Which side of this argument represents the bad policy? Is it the Greens demonising licensed and responsible gun owners? That seems like bad policy to me, but then I'm not Australian. Is that considered good policy Down Under?
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The odd thing about it is that the greens want no guns, but dont care about the environmental impact that would have :jaw-dropp
 
theprestige said:
Which side of this argument represents the bad policy? Is it the Greens demonising licensed and responsible gun owners? That seems like bad policy to me, but then I'm not Australian. Is that considered good policy Down Under?
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The problem is that the Greens aren't demonising licensed and responsible gun owners. They are accurately reporting data (actually, accurately reporting that there is very little data available). The Coalition is accusing them of setting out with a partisan agenda. The Coalition is treating the report in the same way they treated the recent Climate Change report - by accusing those who are responsibly reporting facts as having a political agenda, just because those facts go contrary to Coalition policy.
 
arthwollipot said:
The problem is that the Greens aren't demonising licensed and responsible gun owners. They are accurately reporting data (actually, accurately reporting that there is very little data available). The Coalition is accusing them of setting out with a partisan agenda. The Coalition is treating the report in the same way they treated the recent Climate Change report - by accusing those who are responsibly reporting facts as having a political agenda, just because those facts go contrary to Coalition policy.
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Just taking a step back for a second, what are these facts that theyre reporting? Specifically about illegal firearms trade?
 
arthwollipot said:
The problem is that the Greens aren't demonising licensed and responsible gun owners. They are accurately reporting data (actually, accurately reporting that there is very little data available). The Coalition is accusing them of setting out with a partisan agenda. The Coalition is treating the report in the same way they treated the recent Climate Change report - by accusing those who are responsibly reporting facts as having a political agenda, just because those facts go contrary to Coalition policy.
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Fair enough. Can you recommend some way for me to distinguish a true claim, presented as you have here, from a false claim presented in the same way?
 
devnull said:
One of the biggest problems australia has with guns at the moment is because of the constant demonising of firearms, not enough people have them at a time when farmers could really use a hand. There's a massive fox/feral cat/feral dog/etc problem looming and nobody is doing anything because apparently guns can only be used to kill people.

Sure, the bad guys shouldnt have easy access to them, and crazy people shouldnt be issued licenses, but guns are a useful tool to solve *hard* problems that nobody seems to care about from the comfort of their Subiaco apartments.
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In my experience of living rurally for the last ten years, there isn't any problem finding people with guns to solve vermin problems. There is a shooter who comes to our property regularly to shoot foxes and rabbits. Even when I was besieged in a caravan by a feral pig, I was able to make a single phone call and get someone to come out and shoot it.

I don't think there's a problem with access to guns by licensed shooters for vermin control purposes, but my evidence is of course anecdotal.
 
devnull said:
One of the biggest problems australia has with guns at the moment is because of the constant demonising of firearms, not enough people have them at a time when farmers could really use a hand. There's a massive fox/feral cat/feral dog/etc problem looming and nobody is doing anything because apparently guns can only be used to kill people.
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Gawdzilla Sama said:
Are guns the best solution for the problem?
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Yeah. What happened to boomerangs? Were those just a myth after all?
 
More, from the Guardian:

Greens, Coalition both claim majority view on gun-related violence report

A war of words has broken out over a Senate inquiry report into gun-related violence, with the Coalition and the Greens both claiming the majority view.

The inquiry found wide variations in the available information from state, territory and federal police and other agencies.

But that was the only point of agreement. The Greens accused most senators participating in the inquiry of kowtowing to the gun lobby after they found that most illegal guns did not originate from licensed firearm owners.

The Greens senator Penny Wright, who chaired the inquiry, claimed she and three Labor members signed off the committee’s majority report.

But the Nationals senator Bridget McKenzie also claimed majority status for a separate report, even though she and the Liberal Democrat David Leyonhjelm were technically non-voting members of the inquiry.
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Gawdzilla Sama said:
Are guns the best solution for the problem?
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Depends on the problem really.

IMHO, yes, generally. Rabbits can be controlled by a variety of means, but once youve seen a blind rabbit hopping in circles while starving to death, because they have something of an immunity to 1080 or whatever, you realise that a quick shot to the head is much more humane. On the other hand, we'd need a lot of shooters to control rabbits to the same level that mixy/1080/whatever can. But if a farmer has an issue with a warren, it's quite effective to park up with a couple of .22s and pick them off as they exit the warren.

Larger animals are a different story. Generally it is more efficient to just shoot.

Cost is also a factor. Farmers have it hard enough without paying for poisons, and obviously you need to be extremely careful with them. Easier and cheaper just to ask guys to come shoot your property. The majority of sporting/recreational shooters will do it for free.

The bigger the animal, the larger the caliber needed to humanely destroy the animal. Obviously larger calibers are less common. Id hate to think there are people tackling camels with anything less than a 30 cal, but there probably are, simply through necessity.

Im not convinced though that all farmers are inundated with responsible shooters happy to help. They should be. What we find is that farmers are doing it themselves, after a full day of work. We have several farms we shoot, and at times when we are too busy to get out there we get calls asking when we can get out there again. Having a bunch of local 20 year olds half pissed and driving around in utes doesnt appeal for some reason.

In the end though, the most humane way to destroy an animal is with a headshot. No suffering, weeks of pain from poisons etc.
 
arthwollipot said:
Skepticism 101: True claims are backed up by evidence rather than ideology.
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You know, I was just thinking that very thing. So when you say that the Greens are responsibly reporting data without any ideological agenda, you have evidence to back up what you say? I mean, you've obviously formed an opinion, and chosen a side, and taken to characterizing the actions and motives of others involved in the debate; rather than just reporting the facts.
 
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theprestige said:
You know, I was just thinking that very thing. So when you say that the Greens are responsibly reporting data without any ideological agenda, you have evidence to back up what you say? I mean, you've obviously formed an opinion, and chosen a side, and taken to characterizing the actions and motives of others involved in the debate; rather than just reporting the facts.
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Australia suffers from the same political problems that plague most western democracies. Basically you can massage any statistic to support any argument you care to present.

The core problem is created by the flawed way the data is collected. What is meant in one state, means something else in another state. The current members of the government have a bit of a reputation for dishonesty on a range of subjects over the last few years. So based on past behavior I am more likely to trust a little more the report produced by the Greens than I am the government.
 
MG1962 said:
Australia suffers from the same political problems that plague most western democracies. Basically you can massage any statistic to support any argument you care to present.

The core problem is created by the flawed way the data is collected. What is meant in one state, means something else in another state. The current members of the government have a bit of a reputation for dishonesty on a range of subjects over the last few years. So based on past behavior I am more likely to trust a little more the report produced by the Greens than I am the government.
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This, basically. Also, the Greens are reporting the results of a Senate Inquiry while the Coalition is merely trash-talking the Greens.
 
theprestige said:
You know, I was just thinking that very thing. So when you say that the Greens are responsibly reporting data without any ideological agenda, you have evidence to back up what you say? I mean, you've obviously formed an opinion, and chosen a side, and taken to characterizing the actions and motives of others involved in the debate; rather than just reporting the facts.
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Have you read the two news articles I posted? Or are you just kneejerk reacting to what you think I'm saying?
 
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