zaayrdragon,
Sorry for my late reply it took me quite a while to compose it. Thanks for your gracious and considered response. I will say it again, peace is good. It is much easier to be lucid in communications when the antagonism is removed.
zaayrdragon said:
Line of sight: IF there were some effect on the disc that were NOT discernible through hearing, but came up as a difference on a graphic equalizer or some other clue, it might be considered a 'cheat'. Further, seeing or not seeing the stereo should be irrelevant to the test. I much prefer the idea of not seeing nor touching the discs in any way - not for any 'escape portal' for you, but to prevent ANY cheating - intentional or otherwise - on your part. The dummy chip - also irrelevant, in that the discs could be treated before being brought to your test, so you wouldn't know anyway. You certainly shouldn't SEE the treatment being done - again, you might catch some subtle clue as to which discs were which. Also, how can you be 100% positive that the chip is, indeed, a dummy chip - that the woo magic isn't still present in spite of the removal of the 'dot'? A dummy chip could still be a potential escape portal.
LOL, I do manage to make some poor choices in my wording at times don't I. I simply view having an observer between me and the sound as an unnecessary, and more importantly, a distinctly distracting proposition.
I find the discussion over the dummy chip to be quite curious. Steven Howard's protocol proposal is impossible without a dummy chip. I liked Steven's proposed methodology for the most part, enough so that I chose to use its general methodology as my base, I simply reconfigured it to factor in some of my concerns.
IF I recall correctly, and that is becoming a bigger and bigger if as time passes, the primary distinctions in my proposal are
1) listening time with the subject disc prior to "treatment"
2) not containing the GSIC, but rather covering it (my concern here was simply to use the device in a manner which more closely emulated the manufacturers directions) I personally view this as eliminating an escape portal, not creating one
3) having an observer of my own in the selection room
I really do have a difficult time accepting that these changes were, in any way, unreasonable or difficult to overcome.
The idea of me using the spent chip as an escape portal comes off as ludicrous to me. The alternative methodology requires containing the device which to me has
significantly more potential to be used as an escape portal in my mind. It is after all in my mind where escape portals would germinate. I truly want to eliminate escape portals. For me this is a matter of great principle.
BTW, I don't own a graphic equalizer. My cassette deck has a recording level meter, but this device would not even need to be turned on during the testing. I actually consider this matter to be a moot point in light of Kramer's declaration that it was now the GSIC that was being challenged, not my own discrimination abilities. He was so fixed on this concept that he recruited a non GSIC enthusiast to take the Challenge at an earlier test date to supplant me and save the world from the GSIC fraud. He considers this to be acceptable practice I guess. If he wants the result of the testing unequivocally establish whether the GSIC alters a disc, any and all measuring devices should be fair game, not just ear/brain observations. My claim though was to detect the difference through simple listening tests however. I think clarification is needed as to what the JREF objective is regarding the GSIC.
zaayrdragon said:
And observers? C'mon - you're participating in a scientific test. You have to expect observation. Elsewise, how do they know you aren't checking secretly for some OTHER form of difference between the discs?
See my last point above. This is where I hoped you would provide some detailed specifics. I don't have any test equipment in the first place, but even if I did, the Challenge now seems to to be only about crediting or discrediting the GSIC itself. The testing is about the GSIC, not me according to Kramere. The GSIC is on trial. With this in mind it seems to me that the only way of cheating would be through collusion. My last suggestion for protocol amendment was to eliminate my own observers through a modified protocol element. This suggestion was considered by Kramer to be a new paranormal claim to the point of requiring a new application. I think he was being facetious, but presumably he misunderstood my suggestion completely. Specifically, how do you think that I could cheat outside of collusion? I am suggesting conditions where I wouldn’t have anyone to collude with. This suggestion too was shot down by Kramer, at least on the basis of inference.
zaayrdragon said:
Now, to be fair, these points are moot mainly because the chip doesn't do a thing at all - so there would be no way to tell one disc from another. But assuming some effect were present, all that's needed is that you can hear the difference. Period. If they stick you in a chair, blindfold you, and play identical samples from 'treated' and untreated discs, you should be able to recognize which are treated, and which are not. No fidgeting with controls, or playing with amps or eqs, or any of the other guff.
Like anyone can even know that. ;-)
I don’t think I offered any guff. I don’t need to handle the discs. The only thing I needed to touch was my remote controls, this was stated clearly when the issue was mentioned. It is quite unlikely that I would have a tube failure. But if I did, what possible advantage could I gain from having to correct that condition?
zaayrdragon said:
Someone (was it you?) mentioned wine tasters earlier. A wine expert can tell the difference between two different vintages of the same wine - even if you serve it in cheap glasses or (gasp!) plastic (well, some can, in many cases). Chilled or warm, a true expert can discern the difference regardless. You, however, come across as a self-proclaimed wine taster who insists that he be allowed to inspect the bottles - labels covered, to be fair - , sniff the cork, use only your own personal ultra-fine crystal goblets, etc. etc. etc.
Wasn't me bringing up the wine taster. Actually, I didn't even see that post. I have to catch up on much of this discussion from page 21 on. Wine tasting and audio discrimination are two completely different sensory systems. I would suspect that any wine tester worth his salt would insist on drinking the subject wine from a familiar vessel. I don’t think they would want to be required to gargle with original flavor Listerine in order to clean their palate and then be required to consume the wine from a beer bong, do you? I think they would find that to be distracting, perhaps they could still pass the test, but I am guessing that their chances would diminish greatly. This stupid illustration is extreme, but I use it to highlight the importance of performing a claimed ability under familiar and customary conditions. Now if someone claims they can do something under any conditions, that is a different matter.
From my perspective, any stated requests or stated requirements come from the simple perspective of wanting, and in reality, needing, a distraction free environment that replicates my customary conditions to my satisfaction. It can't be any simpler. As I have stated before, I don’t expect to achieve perfect conditions, I expect to ONLY be subjected to necessary conditions outside my norm. I really do need specifics about any of my requirement “vanities†to address the matter with succinct relevance. Actually, don’t expect succinct from me even with specifics, I do try my best to be relevant however.
zaayrdragon said:
I'm sorry if I come across harshly. I'm taking a step back from the forum until my daughter is released from the hospital.
I'm very sorry to hear this about your daughter. What has happened to her?
zaayrdragon said:
What about the date-of-test goalpost?
The reality of the matter is that there never was a test date established. There were some dates discussed as possibilities, but the protocol negotiations always seemed to fall apart before dates were nailed down. There was a time where I provisionally agreed to be tested in June after Kramer and myself had a phone conversation where we thought we were in agreement in principle over the protocol. In that very same conversation, held the morning of March 31, I stated my desire that a protocol be set in stone quickly and that I would like to be tested August 1, or shortly thereafter, depending on the availability of the local observer Kramer had in mind. Kramer was of the mind that he wanted testing to be done quickly after a protocol was agreed to. The reason he gave for this was that many applicants added new protocol requirements over the time between agreement and testing. I had no reason to doubt that this had been his experience in dealing with applicants in the past. The problem was that his concern ran contrary to my own, which was to set a protocol in stone, and then have a length of time to settle back into my customary listening pattern, forgeting the stresses of protocol negotiations, and simply prepare my mind for testing. I assured him that I would not request ANY protocol amendments over that time. My basis for desiring a lengthy interval between protocol agreement and testing was to regain the conditions in place at the time I submitted my application. That condition being peace. My peace has been greatly disturbed by the whole JREF/JREF Forum experience. Regardless of what ANYONE else thinks,
I believe this condition to be absolutely vital to my success with the Challenge. I never waffled once on this matter. I did
consider compromise. In our morning conversation on March 31, I did tell Kramer that I would agree to June testing if Mr. Randi would not agree to my August preference, I didn’t understand the JREF position or insistence for testing to occur earlier than I desired, he told me he would run the matter by Mr. Randi, my hope was that Mr. Randi would agree to my preference, and that we would iron out a few protocol wrinkles that perceived as slight by Kramer and I both at that time. Kramer sent me the following cordial communication shortly after our conversatin ended. I edit the ending as to not reveal the local observer contact information.
Hello Michael,
It was VERY good to talk with you this morning. Let's work hard toward making a test happen in June, if all parties can corrdinate their schedules accordingly. We understand that July is out, and early August is also a possibility for you.
*snip* is definitely the man to help with this claim. Here's his contact data:
*snip contact name and address*
Let's get it rolling.
-Kramer, JREF
I respond by saying.
Thanks Kramer,
Just to be clear I have a fairly strong aversion to doing this in June. I just feel a little rushed with everything else on my plate. I do feel the need to settle into audiophile mode without any other distractions for a period of time to get my comfort level back to where it needs to be. Aug. 1 thru Aug. 15 would be a great time for me and would give me great peace of mind which I feel is essential to my success with this Challenge.
Michael
The only place where I believe waffling could be perceived (not established) was at this time when I did provisionally agree to testing in June if I
had to. There was a lot of good will expressed in this March 31 phone conversation. Check out the Audio Critic thread for that morning to see how I was feeling prior to the confusion.
It is unfortunate that the good vibe didn’t last long. Bear in mind that these discussions to place at a time when sensitivities were in a heightened state. I think Kramer may have simply overlooked or forgot his promise go to Mr. Randi and ask for approval of the August dates, I don’t see how, but I believe the possibility exists. I didn’t sense that Kramer even talked to Mr. Randi about my preference before sending out his correspondence to me. It seems to me that he might have been so focused on his desire for June testing, and my subsequent provisional approval, that he neglected to act on the provisional part. I immediately clarified my aversion to June testing. I subsequently called Kramer back that day, but am foggy on the details, I actually left that conversation with my head spinning, still feeling the sting of betrayal from events earlier in the day. There is a fair amount more to this that will be evident after I post the interleaved emails to the JREF Forum.
zaayrdragon said:
Certainly, I don't need to know what you did or did not buy or return. It's your passion. However, I wonder - if you research your intended purchases 'quite exhaustively', why did you buy a GSIC? The research clearly indicates that it does nothing at all, and that their explanation is senseless. Or do you usually buy into things that defy logic, scientific knowledge, and reason?
FWIW, as a Pagan priest, I see that all the time, and am guilty of it myself. I buy crystals for luck or healing or whatever, knowing that the effect is entirely psychological. But a $1.00 quartz rock vs. (potentially) hundreds for quantum dots seems... Well, it's your passion.
So how do you reconcile the research with your belief that a difference exists?
I tried the GSIC on the recommendation of a dealer that I have received great advice from previously. I have the highest regard for his opinion.
zaayrdragon said:
Napoleon? I missed that reference. Besides, your odd wording indicates that I may have hit closer to truth than you'd like to admit. Beleth seems to have hit the nail squarely this time.
The odd wording was an attempt to quote a line from the movie Napoleon Dynamite. I figured I needed some fresher material to work instead of the increasingly lame “If you claim psychic abilities, step forward and be tested by the JREF†retort. As for Beleth, what nail do you refer to?
More on Napoleon at the bottom.
zaayrdragon said:
I have that effect on some people. Not intentional - I assure you, no alterior motives here. And no special knowledge. I only read what's been written, and infer and deduce a great deal. Usually, I'm waaaay off target, but sometimes... eeek.
FWIW, my wife feels the same way about our kids. IMO, though, they OUGHT to have more stuff than I have. Just how I feel.
Parents are always looking for a healthy balance. You want to give them the world. Good man.
zaayrdragon said:
An extremely wise thing to do. And understandable how you can manage almost 3 decades together. We do much the same thing, except my wife is much more adamant about purchases with purpose - well, except where Pagan stuff comes in. But, as I said before, that usually amounts to a couple of bucks. The most expensive useless thing I've ever bought was a $20 book on tips and tricks for The Sims 2. Well, useless to her frame of mind, of course. I've found it invaluable!
But I digress...
If you have the money to spend on high-end audio equipment without blowing the family finances, then why shouldn't you? I'm just looking at the situation in my home - where any extraneous purchases could easily mean the difference between a paid bill and a late bill. Hey, at least you're not blowing dough on car audio nonsense.
... Are you?
I have no interest in car audio, and no budget for it even if I did. I put all my effort and available resources into my main system.
zaayrdragon said:
LOL
Yeah, I toss that in a lot, don't I?
The different feet treatments make some sense to me. The plates that go under the stereo make some sense, too. Some systems are very badly affected by vibrations - I'll agree with that 100%. It's just funny because the military bought into the ceramic cone thing a while back for in-vehicle computer and radio equipment, and discovered that the effect was almost exactly the reverse of what was desired - that the harder materials actually increased the amount of undesireable vibrations, rather than decreasing them.
But for home stereo equipment, it's not that bad of an idea. Sorry if my personal prejudices come out too often. I expect it would be especially useful in homes with good, solid flooring where every walking person didn't jar the heck out of the entire room. (I've lived in one too many trailers in my life!)
... hell, maybe I'll get some cones for my PC. I have a very finicky CD/DVD drive.
No, I think we can see what's going on, deep in your mind: "There's a difference. I can hear the difference. It was quite vivid, I think. Wasn't it? The scientific evidence says there's no difference, but I heard it. I DID hear it, didn't I? There has to be SOME reason I heard that difference... I didn't just imagine it, did I?..."
I believe the potential for deceiving oneself regarding audio effects is great. I consider myself to be on guard against that failing. I wouldn’t claim to be absolutely correct with respect to this concern though. One does their best.
zaayrdragon said:
After reading some other stuff tonight, I think KRAMER needs a vacation though - I still don't think you're justified in calling K a liar and a fraud, but he's certainly got a lot of hostility raging out of him lately.
Oh well - time for me to back off and regroup. I expect lifegazer to start posting again soon, and I'd best be ready for him.
Blessings,
Rev. T
I don’t make my charge against Kramer casually. I have wondered if he is in fact a pathological liar. His blatant falsehoods on Tuesday make me wonder if he actually believed the lies he told. It's as if he didn't care if his lies were easily exposed, brazen behavior is all I can call it.
I can’t claim to have enough data to accuse JREF of fraud in absolute terms. I don’t want to believe this myself. I think the acrimony that had developed between the two of us has led him to commit acts that are hopefully not in his standard repertoire. It is all very unfortunate.
From the movie Napoleon Dynamite.
In this scene Uncle Rico is showing Napoleon, and his brother Kip, a self-produced video showing off his (Uncle Rico) quarterbacking skills.
Uncle Rico: So what do you think?
Kip: It's pretty cool, I guess.
Uncle Rico: Ohhhh, man I wish I could go back in time. I'd take state.
Napoleon Dynamite: This is pretty much the worst video ever made.
Kip: Napoleon, like anyone can even know that.
Uncle Rico: You know what, Napoleon? You can leave.
Napoleon Dynamite: You guys are retarded!
Memorable Quotes from Napoleon Dynamite
Do yourself a favor and don’t read these quotes unless you have seen the movie. Napoleon Dynamite is like the best movie ever. Not that anyone could even know that. ;-)
