Atkins suing USA over ATF ruling on rifles.

[Ranb]

William Atkins developed a device for the Ruger 10/22 rifle to increase the rate of fire. It consisted of a special stock that allowed the barrel and receiver to rock back and forth (bump fire) while shooting, greatly increasing the rate of fire. Rates as high as 650 rpm were claimed. The BATFE ruled in 2003 that the device when used with a 10/22 was not a machine gun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumpfire

In 2006 the BATFE changed their mind and classified it as a machine gun. Parts (a spring) of the stocks were seized from the manufacturer and other owners to make the rifle legal to own. The only machine guns that can be owned by civilians in the USA are those registered by May 1986.

Here is a link to the complaint; http://www.georgiapacking.org/docs/akins/Complaint_with_exhibits.pdf

Does anyone think the plaintiff has a chance to receive just compensation from the government for property taken? Thanks.

Ranb

 

[madurobob]

Doubtful given the safety and public policy aspects of the ruling.

FWIW - I own a couple of 10/22s. They are fantastic trainers: accurate, cheap to operate, no recoil. I know from talking with other 10/22 owners that bump-fire kits can be found easily. But, its a quick way to find your way to prison.

And who wants a full-auto .22?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

We fully support the US government on this one.

 

[Gagglegnash]

Hi

... clip ...

And who wants a full-auto .22?

Seems like a lot of people.

I've no desire to own a full-auto anything... errr... well...
[daydream] that FN P90 is kind of cute, but I couldn't afford to feed it, so JUST for the cute and the engineering... [/daydream]
ok... but a lot of people do.

Go figure: A few hundred dollars and what amounts to Secret-level security investigation to be allowed to buy one, then a sizable per-item tax and fairly rigid storage and inspection requirements... to possess one. All that just to be able to go out and dump $5 bills per second on the shooting range.

On the other hand, it's actually kind of interesting to go to a full-auto shoot and watch members of white supremacist, black militant, Jewish Self Defense and Neo-Nazi organizations standing around talking with each other happily about the differences between the Sterling and Sten guns they just shot.

Ah, well.

I wonder why we can only all get along when we're all blowing stuff up?

Oh. And. Yeah - any mechanical device that changes the mechanical definition of a weapon... well... changed the mechanical definition of the weapon! A bolt-on crank that pulls the trigger quickly when you turn said crank doesn't change the definition. A different stock that makes a weapon full-auto does.

[air | water]-cooled,
[magazine | clip] fed,
[automacic | semi automatic | auto-and-semi automatic | selectable fire rate],
[blowback | delayed blowback | gas] operated...

THAT kind of definition., right?

 

[madurobob]

All that just to be able to go out and dump $5 bills per second on the shooting range.

I guess thats the best reason for wanting a .22 auto... cheap ammo. But, I think the cool factor would wear off very quickly. And what must it do to that little barrel? It'd be a branding iron after one 50 rd magazine.

On the other hand, it's actually kind of interesting to go to a full-auto shoot and watch members of white supremacist, black militant, Jewish Self Defense and Neo-Nazi organizations standing around talking with each other happily about the differences between the Sterling and Sten guns they just shot.

I used to attend cowboy action shooting events.., never felt safer, even knowing the lunatics there with loaded weapons in their hands. There must be a psychological term/concept that describes that.

 

[Ranb]

A 10/22 with the Atkins Accelerator kit installed still shoots one round for each pull of the trigger, so it should not be a machine gun as defined by the NFA of 1934.

Ranb

 

[Ranb]

.....It'd be a branding iron after one 50 rd magazine.

I used to attend cowboy action shooting events.., never felt safer, even knowing the lunatics there with loaded weapons in their hands. There must be a psychological term/concept that describes that.

I do not think the 22lr cartridge is going to heat up a 10/22 barrel that fast.

Some rifle ranges are much more strict during competitions. The one I use in Kitsap County says; if the safety officer says you broke a rule, you pack up and leave; no talking, just leave. One club in Hawaii actually held an impromptu meeting and voted to kick a member out of the club after he went down range six feet pick up brass. A normal person would have said sorry, this moron said he was doing nothing wrong and got kicked out of the club as a result.

Ranb

 

[madurobob]

A 10/22 with the Atkins Accelerator kit installed still shoots one round for each pull of the trigger, so it should not be a machine gun as defined by the NFA of 1934.

Ranb

That may depend on how you define "pull of the trigger". I've seen them in action and I can say for sure that one "squeeze" of the trigger sent 50 rounds out of the barrel in about 3 seconds. The mechanism itself may make it appear as if individual pulls on the trigger are required to fire each bullet, but thats not really the case in practice. I've seen some fast trigger fingers before, but 50 individual "pulls" in 3 seconds in simply not believable.

 

[madurobob]

Check out the close-ups of the trigger when you can - you think thats a single "pull" or 50 individual pulls?

 

[Gagglegnash]

Hi

Here's a video of a fellow firing the Akins Accelerator:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P8AbTKvykE
He's DEFINATELY pulling the trigger all the way back, and only once. Check at about 24 seconds in. He's clamping it down.

Maybe the TRIGGER SEAR is being activated, one per round, but the trigger itself, and I believe that's what's cited in the regulation, is being pulled only once.

 

[madurobob]

Jynx

ETA: Also, surely thats a .22 magnum to have that kind of recoil and make that much noise..?

 

[Gagglegnash]

Hi

Can you point me to where I can find out about the YouTube embedding???

ETA: Yes - I believe you're right. I froze the video at 0:26 and it does look like a mag.

 

[madurobob]

Hi

Can you point me to where I can find out about the YouTube embedding???

Nothing to it: put yt in brackets, just as with quote coding. Then, between the yt and /yt (in brackets) put the youtube code (the bit that comes after "v=" in the youtube url).

If you quote my post with the embedded video you should be able to see how I did it.

 

[Gagglegnash]

Nothing to it: put yt in brackets, just as with quote coding. Then, between the yt and /yt (in brackets) put the youtube code (the bit that comes after "v=" in the youtube url).

If you quote my post with the embedded video you should be able to see how I did it.

Thanks very much.

Oh. And...

D'OH!! (_8(|)

 

[WildCat]

Oooh, I have a 10/22, this looks fun!

 

[Ranb]

That may depend on how you define "pull of the trigger". I've seen them in action and I can say for sure that one "squeeze" of the trigger sent 50 rounds out of the barrel in about 3 seconds. The mechanism itself may make it appear as if individual pulls on the trigger are required to fire each bullet, but thats not really the case in practice. I've seen some fast trigger fingers before, but 50 individual "pulls" in 3 seconds in simply not believable.

The Atkins device is the stock with a few other components. The barrel and receiver move back under recoil upon firing. While the trigger finger stays still, the trigger moves against the finger when the receiver is moved forward by the spring. Since there is no auto sear to release the hammer as soon as the bolt goes forward, the trigger must be pulled each time to fire a shot. While it appears to operate like a machine gun, the trigger is pulled for each shot, very fast.

While it seems to be a good way to increase the rate of fire, you can see the sights moving so fast they seem to vibrate, so precise aiming is out of the question unless sights or a scope is mounted to the stock. Either way, a group at 25 yards is going to look like a shotgun made it.

Ranb

 

[ServiceSoon]

Hint: Read the complaint to become familiar with the case before making an educated comment.

Does anyone think the plaintiff has a chance to receive just compensation from the government for property taken? Thanks.
Ranb

If there is anywhere in the world that akins has a chance it is in America.

Oooh, I have a 10/22, this looked fun!

Fixed it for you.

 

[madurobob]

The Atkins device is the stock with a few other components. The barrel and receiver move back under recoil upon firing. While the trigger finger stays still, the trigger moves against the finger when the receiver is moved forward by the spring. Since there is no auto sear to release the hammer as soon as the bolt goes forward, the trigger must be pulled each time to fire a shot. While it appears to operate like a machine gun, the trigger is pulled for each shot, very fast.

Again, it seems to fall on a definition of pulling the trigger. In the video the shooters very definitely make one single pull on the trigger if you define that as moving your trigger finger to actuate the trigger. How the action moves within the stock makes no difference if the intent of the law is to limit how the shooter uses the weapon (one pull = many shots).

While it seems to be a good way to increase the rate of fire, you can see the sights moving so fast they seem to vibrate, so precise aiming is out of the question unless sights or a scope is mounted to the stock. Either way, a group at 25 yards is going to look like a shotgun made it.

Sure, I've used hellfire triggers that are even worse... and a bit more scary to operate.

 

[Gagglegnash]

Hi

Wrong, oh, wrong!

Withdrawn.

 

[Ranb]

Again, it seems to fall on a definition of pulling the trigger. In the video the shooters very definitely make one single pull on the trigger if you define that as moving your trigger finger to actuate the trigger. How the action moves within the stock makes no difference if the intent of the law is to limit how the shooter uses the weapon (one pull = many shots).

I do not use (the ATF did not in 2003) motion of the finger to define a machine gun. The trigger, relative to the receiver is pulled for each shot. The definition of a machine gun is in the link for the lawsuit.

Ranb