Atheists destroy churches, attack the faithful

It doesn't seem to have much to do with my post:

"T2 seems to be unable to grasp the fact that believers choose what to believe and what to dismiss from various scriptures - be that "detailed instructions" or general nonsense."

I think you're mostly right, dann, when it comes to theists in general. The US (and the ME, apparently) have religious "sub-groups" that are very much totalitarian cults, to be completely honest. No "you get to pick and choose on your own" allowed. Some "evangelical" christian churches are like that. There's these guys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_fundamentalism I think some strains of Roman Catholicism are still like that, but I have little direct experience with them.
 
Sadly"T2 seems to be unable to grasp the fact that believers choose what to believe and what to dismiss from various scriptures - be that "detailed instructions" or general nonsense."

Sadly, no. Rather, dann seems to be completely unfamiliar with any theist/believer of any stripe. Believers believe what their holy books and holy priests tell them to believe.
 
Sadly, no. Rather, dann seems to be completely unfamiliar with any theist/believer of any stripe. Believers believe what their holy books and holy priests tell them to believe.

The cult-like fundamentalism is unique to America in the Western world. Theists are different in Europe.
 
The cult-like fundamentalism is unique to America in the Western world. Theists are different in Europe.

Is it unique to America? Or is Western Europe unique in the world by having believers (of any stripe) who think for themselves?

To be honest, I rather doubt that many Western European believers really do ignore their priests and their bibles, either. Lots of people fancy themselves as independent free thinkers, while they toddle along doing what they are told to do by those they have convinced themselves are their betters.

The lack of atheistic hierarchy, scripture, dogma, or priests really do put a damper on the whole false equivalence that the likes of dann and Squeegee and TBD really want everyone else to fall for.
 
Is it unique to America?

There's aspects of it that are unique to America, although America, I hope it doesn't need to be said, certainly lacks some sort of monopoly on religious extremism.

"The Religious Right," the ability of religion to have massive influence while have almost literally no codified power, the weird strain of almost nihilistic religious apocolypta that informs so much of our domestic and foreign policy, a few other related concepts... I would argue this are very "American" and kind hard to get across to people from other cultures.
 
There's aspects of it that are unique to America, although America, I hope it doesn't need to be said, certainly lacks some sort of monopoly on religious extremism.

"The Religious Right," the ability of religion to have massive influence while have almost literally no codified power, the weird strain of almost nihilistic religious apocolypta that informs so much of our domestic and foreign policy, a few other related concepts... I would argue this are very "American" and kind hard to get across to people from other cultures.

Don't let the apparent paucity of codified religious power in America fool you. So very many of our codified "secular" laws are religious to anyone paying the slightest bit of attention. For instance, so called "blue laws" and the prohibition of alcohol sales during church hours in many US States never explicitly "codify" the plainly apparent religious underpinning.
 
Knock knock knock!

Say this thread is about atheist human rights abuses.

While I am sure that you atheists are aching about it, let’s pull ourselves together.
 
Knock knock knock!

Say this thread is about atheist human rights abuses.

While I am sure that you atheists are aching about it, let’s pull ourselves together.

After repeatedly crying wolf, the little boy had no street cred left. Unlike the story, here no wolf will ever show. Quite the howl, nevertheless.
 
Is it unique to America? Or is Western Europe unique in the world by having believers (of any stripe) who think for themselves?

To be honest, I rather doubt that many Western European believers really do ignore their priests and their bibles, either. Lots of people fancy themselves as independent free thinkers, while they toddle along doing what they are told to do by those they have convinced themselves are their betters.

The lack of atheistic hierarchy, scripture, dogma, or priests really do put a damper on the whole false equivalence that the likes of dann and Squeegee and TBD really want everyone else to fall for.

Here's one example:

https://www.dw.com/en/german-radical-christians-look-to-us/a-1391622
"I pray every day, I read the Bible every morning … My faith gives me focus and perspective."

It's questionable whether a candidate for the German chancellorship would be able to run a successful campaign with such statements
-- even if he or she belonged to a party that carries the Christian "C" in its name, such as the country's largest opposition party, the Christian Democratic Union and her Bavarian sister, the Christian Social Union.

US President George W. Bush, on the other hand, managed to win re-election partly because he said exactly that.

The religious fanaticism common and standard in America with purity balls and kids disallowed from being able to read "secular" books/magazines and watch "secular" movies, Jesus Camp, a Creation Museum, megachurches with millionaire pastors in every city, ect and so on is unique in the Western World (although supposedly megachurches are becoming a thing in Oz now.)

eta:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/most-religious-countries-in-the-world/

Around three in 10 Britons feel religious, the polls suggest, compared to 56 per cent of Americans.

The least religious countries, on the other hand, include Japan, Estonia, Sweden, Norway and the Czech Republic, but China surpasses them all, with only seven per cent.
 
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Sadly, no. Rather, dann seems to be completely unfamiliar with any theist/believer of any stripe. Believers believe what their holy books and holy priests tell them to believe.

Err... your experience with theists seems quite... limited, if you're going to say that. To some extent, this is true. Some extent. It's also true that, even within a religion, different "holy priests" generally have teachings that differ from each other. It's also true that it's fairly common for people to change gathering places and groups for all kinds of reasons, frequently changing the teaching that they're exposed to in the process. More could easily be said, but, in short, you pretty clearly don't know what you're talking about very well if you're willing to try to refute what dann said with... that.

dann has a point, regardless, in practice. Members of pretty much any religion rarely have a deep and full understanding of the theology associated with their religion and largely then fill in the gaps with whatever they feel like when they reach one of those gaps. Or they find some principle to be something that they just don't like and just choose to ignore it or rationalize a directly contradictory view, for better or worse. Moral of the story? Treating any major religion as monolithic is something of a doomed endeavor.

Is it unique to America? Or is Western Europe unique in the world by having believers (of any stripe) who think for themselves?

:rolleyes: America's situation is somewhat unique among the more developed countries, when it comes to religion. With that said, though, there are plenty of believers who think for themselves. That many of them don't employ much serious or impartial skepticism when it comes to religions, though, is a different matter.

To be honest, I rather doubt that many Western European believers really do ignore their priests and their bibles, either. Lots of people fancy themselves as independent free thinkers, while they toddle along doing what they are told to do by those they have convinced themselves are their betters.

Hmm. Well, some do, some don't. Have any statistical data on hand that you would find relevant in backing up your opinion? As it is, depending on what groups you meant, this could be trivially true or unlikely to be true. I've heard much about how a number of people who identify with one religion or other in Europe largely do so in name only and might attend some holiday service once or twice a year, at most. In such cases, it's frequently a matter of upholding tradition and culture rather than meaningfully being a believer. On the other hand, if you're effectively narrowing the field down to the devout, somewhat sheep-like believers from the start, of course their religious leaders will generally hold more sway regarding how they think, but that doesn't tell us much about a more general picture.

The lack of atheistic hierarchy, scripture, dogma, or priests really do put a damper on the whole false equivalence that the likes of dann and Squeegee and TBD really want everyone else to fall for.

Hmm? TBD, I can see trying to employ false equivalence, like usual. From your reaction to what dann said in the line of conversation that I first addressed and what he had said there, I somewhat suspect that you're jumping to conclusions with him and missing what's actually being said. From what I've seen of Squeegee elsewhere, I find myself doubting your claim about him here further.
 
Sadly, no. Rather, dann seems to be completely unfamiliar with any theist/believer of any stripe. Believers believe what their holy books and holy priests tell them to believe.


No, I'm very familiar with both theists and other believers. What you and T2 don't seem to be familiar with is that believers pick and choose what they want to believe in - just like you do!
Muslims are an obvious example, one that T2 loves and always misunderstands because he's as blind a cherry picker as most religious fanatics. He loves to refer to the handful of guys who flew airplanes into buildings on 9/11, the most extreme fanatics you can find, but he tends to ignore the 1.8 billion Muslims who abhor the fanaticism of the fundies - and who are the main victims of them.
Let me give you just one example:

"When the Muslim Brotherhood ran for election in Egypt, I wrote (in a tweet),
“They are terrorists, they terrorise people and support terrorism. And they do this in Allah, in God’s name? It can’t be more extreme.”"
(My transcription from the short documentary The Internet Warriors[/url. It's a wonderful documentary! They're all there: the racists, the anti-communists, the Trump worshippers ...]


In Denmark, you'll have a hard time finding a Christian fundamentalist, but they are still around, usually in small congregations outside of the State Church. [url=https://www.thelocal.dk/20180306/denmark-to-deport-priest-to-us-after-finding-him-guilty-of-sexual-assaulting-minors]Denmark to deport priest to US after finding him guilty of sexually assaulting minors
(The Local, March, 2018)
(1. When Danes speak English they tend to call any preacher "priest" because it's so close to the Danish word for preacher = præst.
2. It was a Christian congregation, but it's doubtful that the perpetrator was ever a Christian. He was probably an ordinary psychopath who had donned the robes of the clergy because it served his purposes.)

However, most members of Folkekirken/The Church of Denmark don't believe in Adam and Eve, in creationism (not even in the 'intelligent design' version), and we have vicars who don't believe in God (Wikipedia)! And this is not unique to Denmark. You find them in other countries, too!
Two per cent of Anglican priests don't believe in God, survey finds. As many as 16 per cent are agnostic. (The Independent, Oct. 27, 2014)

Why do you think that T2 never mentions these guys? (I mean, there are many more of them than there are Muslim terrorists!) Why do you think that T2 is such a cherry picker -just like the religious fanatics? And why do you prefer to think that I've never met any believers? Why do you prefer to think that I am "completely unfamiliar with any theist/believer of any stripe," even though it's so obvious that I'm not? In this thread, for instance, I've met TBD!

The answer to my question is very simple: Atheism has fundamentalist cherry pickers, too. They are not something that you find only among people of a religious faith. They probably only have adverse effects on the attempts to wipe out religion, and guys like T2 appear to be in as much denial about certain aspects of the world we live in as the religious nuts. Don't join him!
The Death of Religion – not with a bang but a whimper
 

Is it worth mentioning that China's a fairly inaccurate datapoint, in general, given its long history of government shenanigans in relation to religion? Not entirely without reason, honestly, though, if one takes in to account events like the Taiping Rebellion.

Knock knock knock!

Say this thread is about atheist human rights abuses.

While I am sure that you atheists are aching about it, let’s pull ourselves together.

You've yet to give any reason to believe that any human rights abuses are rooted in atheism in the first place, despite your flailing attempts to just assert it. Thus, your invocation of atheism is roundly rejected.

The human rights abuses being committed are problematic and condemnation-worthy, but hardly unexpected given China's history with religion and the not so distant or uncharacteristic past suppression of most or all religions that posed a challenge to the ideology being pushed by the leadership, whichever leadership it was, for much of the last two millennia.
 
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To be honest, I rather doubt that many Western European believers really do ignore their priests and their bibles, either. Lots of people fancy themselves as independent free thinkers, while they toddle along doing what they are told to do by those they have convinced themselves are their betters.


That does not at all describe the Christians I know on a personal level. (I don't consider the knowledge I have of TBD to be particularly personal.) You and T2 are the ones that toddle along thinking whatever you have convinced yourselves of by ignoring major parts of reality.
 
But still:



That's... actually a very fast increase in non-religiousness (bearing in mind that non-religious is not the same as atheism). Backlash against the Religious Right's nasty tactics in their attempts to meddle with government, maybe? I'm sure it's much more complex than that, of course.
 
The cult-like fundamentalism is unique to America in the Western world. Theists are different in Europe.


You shouldn't generalize like this. Even in the least religious countries in Europe, we do have Christian fundamentalists and cults, but they are very few and very far between: Evangelist (Wikipedia). You can live a lifetime in Denmark without ever meeting one.


ETA: I forgot the Jehovah's Witnesses. There are 15,000 of those (population in DK: 6 million). However, they tend not to be as in-your-face as the ones I've met in the USA or Cuba.
Compared to:
... the Pew Research Center reported that Jehovah's Witnesses make up 0.8% of the US population (approximately 2.5 million).
Demographics of Jehova's Witnesses (Wikipedia)
 
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That's... actually a very fast increase in non-religiousness (bearing in mind that non-religious is not the same as atheism). Backlash against the Religious Right's nasty tactics in their attempts to meddle with government, maybe? I'm sure it's much more complex than that, of course.


I don't know if the increase was gradual or very sudden: post 11/9 2016! :)
 
Not gonna kid ya, flat stopped reading right at that point.

Thanks man, I mean, who opens up a post with nothing but a baseless insult and expects me to respond. And this is after telling me that my 'snarky' posts don't count.

As a creepy porn lawyer likes to say: Basta.

My comment was neither baseless, nor insulting. If you are looking for excuses not to respond, well done- you found another one. As this has been your modus operandi throughout this thread, this does not come as a surprise. However, if you ignore any and all arguments against your position, then all you are doing is preaching, and preaching to the unconverted at that.
As far as I can tell, you have convinced literally no-one in this thread. No-one. In fact, in the case of one forum member, you have actually driven him away from religion.
If you don't respond to the input of others, and refuse even to acknowledge their arguments, then you will only alienate and annoy them.
I read somewhere that some guy called Jesus advised treating others as you would like to be treated yourself.
Sounds like pretty good advice to me. Have you considered becoming a Christian?
 

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