Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

[Wildy]

Take yesterday's thread on drug dogs and front yards. According to ceepolk it's racist because, presumably PoC don't live in houses with yards.

That's quite bigoted of ceepolk to treat all PoC's (P'soC?) in the exact same way.

Interesting. Is it okay to use therapy to teach a non high functioning male autistic person that no means no? Or is that erasing them by forcing them to fit arbitrary social expectations?

(Yeah, that's a question related to "intersectionality." Whoop dee doo. So, what's the answer?)

Respectfully,
Myriad

I wonder what would happen if you went to the A+ forums and asked that question?

I gather the answer would be something along the lines of "privilege and intersectionality only apply to groups and not individuals" or some other crap that just reinforces the nebulous nature of those terms.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I did ask that kind of question in that thread and they did. My son goes for armpits and, consequently, sometimes he touches boobs. We have mostly extinguished that behavior but sometimes we have to reinforce. I did explode, too, in response because I thought it was a skeptical forum where we would discuss issues related to social justice and such. (That and my previous references to it are to the best of my recollection, of course.)

I think that's the mistake a lot of people are making. Clearly it's not a skeptics forum.

 

[Myriad]

I did ask that kind of question in that thread and they did. My son goes for armpits and, consequently, sometimes he touches boobs. We have mostly extinguished that behavior but sometimes we have to reinforce. I did explode, too, in response because I thought it was a skeptical forum where we would discuss issues related to social justice and such. (That and my previous references to it are to the best of my recollection, of course.)

When you asked in the thread, the others participating in it at the time basically denied it was an issue, saying that of course it was necessary to correct such behaviors and that no one was suggesting otherwise. But by the end of the thread, after the discussion where Mr. Samsa heroically* defended actual evidence-based behavioral therapies, there were several claiming that all use of insidious operant conditioning (i.e. interaction with feedback and positive reinforcement) to alter an autistic child's "natural behaviors" is morally reprehensible and ableist, even when the behaviors are self-injurious such as head banging.

Had boob-touching been brought up again in that context, there's no way to tell whether they would have stuck to their "natural behaviors" guns or not.

Respectfully,
Myriad

*Credit where it's due, even though he was clearly given far more latitude to press a rational point objectionable to the all-important feelings of others than most people on A+ would have been.

 

[Diogenes]

When you asked in the thread, the others participating in it at the time basically denied it was an issue, saying that of course it was necessary to correct such behaviors and that no one was suggesting otherwise. But by the end of the thread, after the discussion where Mr. Samsa heroically* defended actual evidence-based behavioral therapies...

ayup, I see I didn't remember it exactly as it went down. I left there after my last reply so I wasn't around for that ABA stuff...which is what we are doing, of course.

I am reminded that since, apparently, I don't self-identify as autistic despite a diagnosis I'm not autistic enough to understand the autistic experience.

 

[theprestige]

Ol' Brother Edward lasted a whole 14 hours before he got banned for a week. That was, frankly, longer than I expected him to last, given the tendencies of the "administration" there.

Just goes to show that the A+ crowd has no interest whatsoever in actually discussing anything. I'll exclude qwints from that statement; he's got the stones to come over here and engage us, to his credit.

I dunno... I think Brother Edward is notable for manufacturing a situation in which the A+ forum community is actually in the right.

 

[dasmiller]

I dunno... I think Brother Edward is notable for manufacturing a situation in which the A+ forum community is actually in the right.

Since it seems that Br'er Edward simply wanted to have his sig appear on an atheist forum, I can understand why such a forum might not be optimistic about the chances for him to become a valued contributing member. I think A+ was being . . . well, Aplussy in the whole pick-a-fight argument, but other than that, Edward was openly uninterested in the site's rules, or objectives, or pretty much anything but getting his sig out there. His short tenure at A+ doesn't necessarily reflect badly on A+.

 

[CaptainManacles]

And yet that's not the way the term is used in practice, at least not consistently. As evidence, I site an A+ thread (which I don't have a link to, but will try to dig it up if requested) in which someone was complaining that people who, like her, didn't own a car are systemically oppressed by a society that rewards car owners. A driverarchy, if you will. She claimed that people who had a car couldn't understand what it was like for people like her who had to walk to work and to the store. And it was unanimously agreed upon that yes, that was a fine example of privilege, and yet another one that the car owners would henceforth check.

Of course there were usual fallacies, like ascribing motive to people she knows nothing about (i.e. assuming the reason a driver cut her off is because he believes he's more "big and important" than she is). But what amazed me was that no one pointed out the obvious fact that every car owner is also a pedestrian some of the time, and every form of "oppression" she faced was also faced by her alleged oppressors. Maybe not as often or for as long at a given stretch, but everyone knows what it's like to almost be mowed down by a rude driver. Furthermore, rude drivers don't only "oppress" pedestrians that way, they also do it to other drivers. And for that matter, it's just as possible (and common) for a rude pedestrian to "oppress" a driver, assuming the driver is among the 99.999% of the population who won't actually deliberately run over a pedestrian who's acting completely out of line.

In this case, privilege seems like simply a synonym for advantage. Of course owning a car is an advantage over not owning one, because being able to get from one place to another faster than your legs can carry you is inherently advantageous. But the claim that "You don't know how it feels" is completely divorced from reality.

Incidentally, that thread was the closest I ever came to joining A+, to point these things out. But then I decided that madness lies that way, and that my swift ban would be a time-wasting exercise in futility. That and the infamous limerick thread were the two that convinced me to write off the entire A+ culture as too shrill and hysterical for rational conversation.

But isn't that a bit like saying "I know what it's like to be confined to a wheelchair, I sit down all the time" There's a qualitative difference between having to walk a block on occasion and knowing you never have the option of using your own car. I get your point, and yeah, it does seem like privilege basically just means 'advantage' but it also seems like there are certain advantages that aren't as trivial as others, and we routinely fail to think about or account for how limiting certain disadvantages can be.

This can be especially bad when disadvantages are supported by a self reinforcing system: no one drives so pedestrians aren't accounted for, so everyone avoids being a pedestrian like the plague, so everyone drives, so city planning doesn't account for pedestrians, so people without cars can't hold down jobs, and can't afford cars. And when it ties into a larger problem like poverty it's even worse. Stuff like that can spiral out of control, but small little improvements can also explode into a huge difference over the long run, so I think there are benefits to being more conscientious about certain advantages, even more so when compounded by known cognitive biases about gender and race, wishful thinking and group-think.

Obviously this can be taken too far, but "different people have different advantages and disadvantages, try to be aware of that" is not a hysterical demand. It seems such an obvious thing that any reasonable adult would already be doing it, but a lot of people aren't doing it, and the manufactured controversy that has sprung up from very reasonable requests like "don't grab our boobs without asking" or "stop bothering me when I ask you to stop bothering me" is further evidence that a common sense refresher course is in need.

 

[theprestige]

Since it seems that Br'er Edward simply wanted to have his sig appear on an atheist forum, I can understand why such a forum might not be optimistic about the chances for him to become a valued contributing member. I think A+ was being . . . well, Aplussy in the whole pick-a-fight argument, but other than that, Edward was openly uninterested in the site's rules, or objectives, or pretty much anything but getting his sig out there. His short tenure at A+ doesn't necessarily reflect badly on A+.

Exactly. He was posting in bad faith, on a forum that assumes everyone is posting in bad faith. In his case, the assumption was clearly accurate, and he got the banning he richly deserved.

 

[Doctor Plop]

Are the A-plussers now jostling over who has the stupidest kid?

 

[adamwho]

Here is an opportunity you cannot pass up.

Apply today to be a moderator at /r/atheismplus


Note: Please disclose your sawcsm status

 

[jhunter1163]

By way of comparison, we have a list of volunteers that we maintain here. We look for people with enough posting history that we can get a feel for their temperament and any hot-button issues they might have, and for people who've demonstrated that they understand the rules and have abided by them in the past (well, for the most part; an infraction or two doesn't disqualify you.). Typically we'll look at a volunteer's last 2,000 posts.

If you've volunteered to be a mod and haven't been asked, don't despair. It can be years before you're asked (it was about two years between the time I volunteered and the time I got the call, and that's not unusual.)

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[recursive prophet]

LOL, A+ NEEDS YOU! Sign up today!

Here is an opportunity you cannot pass up.

Apply today to be a moderator at /r/atheismplus

What's really funny about this is half of the few remaining posters there are mods. No doubt about it; they need more relief moderation! That's their main problem! Ceepolk's hammer arm is worn out.

 

[luchog]

Someone has a sig line saying something that implies that neurotypicals are somehow inferior because they don't feel empathy the way non-NTs do/can.

Which is profoundly ironic, since one of the defining symptoms of Autism is a difficulty developing empathy or misplaced empathy.

It could be that your attempts to mitigate the effects of a learning disability on your son's social life are being seen as an attempt to erase your son's identity.

G-D only knows what they'd think of hearing aids, glasses, text-to-speech software, or psychiatric medication then, since all of these exist to mitigate the effects of various types of disabilities.

A disability is something to be overcome, not celebrated. But then, it's hard to be a professional victim if you're overcoming your disabilities.

 

[Wildy]

What's really funny about this is half of the few remaining posters there are mods. No doubt about it; they need more relief moderation! That's their main problem! Ceepolk's hammer arm is worn out.

I think you're confusing the A+ forums with the subreddit. Ceepolk doesn't appear to be a mod on the subreddit.

 

[luchog]

I'll be honest. I find that taupe ribbon bit offensive. I'm sure it is a great joke for all those people that self-diagnose as Aspies...which is now formally folded into autism...mostly apparently as an excuse as to why they've been socially awkward. (anecdotal observation, so don't know if that's the actual trend)

As someone who has been diagnosed as ASD (formerly Asperger's), and worked very hard for decades to be able to function in the real world, I don't find it offensive as much as just plain stupid and self-important.

I used to hang out on the Wrong Planet forum, and got thoroughly sick of that sort of attitude. While there were some good people, there to share their ways of coping with the world and interact with others like them; far too many were like APlussers with their whiny, self-indulgent demands that the entire world conform to them, so they wouldn't have to make any effort.

What really drove me away, though, was the sizable number who not only didn't feel any need to work at overcoming their limitations; but actually tried to use it as an excuse to act like raging jackasses to everyone around them. They would be total pricks, and then get all indignant when called on their behaviour, insisting that their ASD made them immune from criticism. Again, much like the APlussers. (A few nutcases even went so far as to consider themselves some kind of ubermenschen, and advocated separatism from the "neurotypicals".)

It's not just self-diagnosed "Aspies"; but even actual ASDs tend to pick up that same attitude.

 

[recursive prophet]

I think you're confusing the A+ forums with the subreddit. Ceepolk doesn't appear to be a mod on the subreddit.

Thanks for the correction. Thought that was a mods wanted ad for the A+ forums. Forgot the subreddit A+ has it's own moderators. I very rarely go there, and usually it's via a link from here.

 

[theprestige]

Are the A-plussers now jostling over who has the stupidest kid?

Thread?

 

[adamwho]

I think you're confusing the A+ forums with the subreddit. Ceepolk doesn't appear to be a mod on the subreddit.

But the criticism is the same. A good number of the posters propping up /r/atheismplus are moderators and it is pretty clear that they are getting bored of keeping up appearances.

It seems that they are thinking about abandoning reddit as a platform. FtB and skepchick are rarely posting on the reddit and when they do they are downvoted to irrelevance.

 

[Diogenes]

...
What really drove me away, though, was the sizable number who not only didn't feel any need to work at overcoming their limitations; but actually tried to use it as an excuse to act like raging jackasses to everyone around them. They would be total pricks, and then get all indignant when called on their behaviour, insisting that their ASD made them immune from criticism. Again, much like the APlussers...

That is where I was headed in that discussion over there. I think it highly likely that I would have had fallen into that category myself had a diagnosis come when I was much younger. Instead of being enabled I adapted as it sounds like you have, too.

 

[recursive prophet]

What really drove me away, though, was the sizable number who not only didn't feel any need to work at overcoming their limitations; but actually tried to use it as an excuse to act like raging jackasses to everyone around them. They would be total pricks, and then get all indignant when called on their behaviour, insisting that their ASD made them immune from criticism. Again, much like the APlussers. (A few nutcases even went so far as to consider themselves some kind of ubermenschen, and advocated separatism from the "neurotypicals".)[Edit: Heh, yet again like A+ers. ]

It's not just self-diagnosed "Aspies"; but even actual ASDs tend to pick up that same attitude.

That is where I was headed in that discussion over there. I think it highly likely that I would have had fallen into that category myself had a diagnosis come when I was much younger. Instead of being enabled I adapted as it sounds like you have, too.

Wish I could have used ASD as an excuse for being such a berk most of my life. I was diagnosed p. extensively at around 18, but that was before ASD was even in the vernacular. What's funny if you knew my history is that it never even occurred to me I might qualify as an aspie until a couple months ago. When I read the wikinition I was nonplussed. Mostly that I had never even checked it out.

At my age, long retired and a total recluse, I didn't think about it much as I can't see how it matters now. Not at all sure my unique and unusual characteristics would fall into the outer parameters of those which are deemed autistic anyway, and don't care. Like da dog and da hog, I guess I adapted, whatever the name for my condition. (assuming there is one)

What I think Ceepolk et al saw as my sense of privilege was simply my failure to profess any victimhood. We all have certain disabilities, as well as strengths. The A+ers seem determined to accentuate the former and make it a new privileged class, at least within their gated little enclave, as many here have noted.

Doesn't seem to be working well if you look at the stats. But that's probably just more of my big tent mansplaining.