Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

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RandFan, how would you define harm? Alternatively, can you point me to a source that discusses that definition in a way you agree with?

I think that effectively persuading people requires challenging on logical and emotional levels. I agree that we have to challenge people who we disagree with, but I think that we can't do that by dismissing the relevance of their emotions. I think exposure and appealing to other sentiments are necessary to persuade someone.
 
RandFan, how would you define harm? Alternatively, can you point me to a source that discusses that definition in a way you agree with?

I think that effectively persuading people requires challenging on logical and emotional levels. I agree that we have to challenge people who we disagree with, but I think that we can't do that by dismissing the relevance of their emotions. I think exposure and appealing to other sentiments are necessary to persuade someone.

It seems that there is a double standard at A+ as to who emotions and opinions are ok to dismiss.
 
RandFan, how would you define harm? Alternatively, can you point me to a source that discusses that definition in a way you agree with?
Source, Haidt's book, the Righteous mind. Or any number of books on morality, ethics or justice. As for my definition of harm, I would suggest, again, any number of books on morality, ethics and/or justice. They can do a better job of defining it than me. Hurting someone's feelings might be "harm" but unless someone is being malicious or gratuitous then feelings are the responsibility of those who have them.

From time to time someone will say something I think is malicious and/or gratuitous and I call them on it. Just that. I don't use it as a "gotcha", a dodge or a red herring. If the person ignores me or asserts that their intent was in good faith then I move on. If they keep it up I put them on ignore. My feelings are ultimately my responsibility. Unless I am a captive audience (kid in school or worker in which case the inappropriate behavior is harassment) then I need to own my emotional responses to others. It's not your job to make me happy. It's not your job to avoid hurting my feelings. It's your job to be civil and present a compelling argument.

I think that effectively persuading people requires challenging on logical and emotional levels. I agree that we have to challenge people who we disagree with, but I think that we can't do that by dismissing the relevance of their emotions. I think exposure and appealing to other sentiments are necessary to persuade someone.
A good orator or debator will utilize any number of rhetorical devices including emotion but these devices must not be the salient aspect of the argument, if they are then the argument is fallacious.

I honestly think you are making way too much of other people's emotions. I try to be civil but not worry too much about other people's feelings. If they are adults then they are responsible for their own feelings. I apologize fairly often here. I'm not entirely insensitive to others. If someone asks me for an apology I will honestly consider that and I often provide them. But if I think someone is using their "offense" as a rhetorical device then I have little respect for such a person and no apology will be given.

I'm not buying the "offense" argument. I'm not buying the "emotion" argument. These are too easily exploited for rhetorical advantage.

The following is taken from a speech by Hitchens that I post frequently. Everyone should watch it IMO.

Hitchens on Free Speech said:
I exempt myself from the speakers kind offer of protection that was so generously proffered at the beginning of this evening. Anyone who wants to say anything abusive about or to me is quite free to do so, and welcome in fact, at their own risk.
 
Feelings are the responsibility of those who have them.

My feelings are ultimately my responsibility.

It's not your job to avoid hurting my feelings. It's your job to be civil and present a compelling argument.

If they are adults then they are responsible for their own feelings.

Like these words o' wisdom.

You know, psychotherapists say those things all the time. :D
 
Short answer: as something that should be considered when forming my own values, when discussing collective values and when talking to them about their values.

I see no reason to disbelieve someone's claim of visceral disgust. It exists. Their disgust affects and shapes their experience. It matters. In the real word cases I've seen, that disgust isn't feigned or is an reasonable response based on that person's experiences. It's valid. That disgust influences or even determines their beliefs about how they and society should react to people. And that emotional reaction ought to determine their morality.

That disgust is likely to convince them to adopt principles I strongly disagree with regarding how they treat gay people and what laws society should adopt. But arguing that they should disregard their emotions is a bad idea for two reasons, first they are likely able to simply couch their objections in "purely intellectual" terms. Second, I am unlikely to change someone's mind when I've taken their basic motivation out of the discussion.


I agree with everything that I didn't change to blue.

But... I find myself waiting for a conclusion. You seem to have painted yourself into a corner here. You don't disregard their emotions, but what do you do?

You could accept the primacy of their emotions and give up the argument. No gay marriage; it would upset the emotions of too many people! But I don't think you're advocating that.

You could accept the importance of their emotions, realizing that they are contradictory to your emotions, and stop there. A stalemate that by default preserves the status quo. (Except, perhaps, locally in enclaves where the people who share your emotions predominate by force of numbers.) But I don't think you're advocating that.

You can decide that, since the dispute exists on an emotional level, it must be contested and resolved on an an emotional level. So, time to pull out your own emotions like so many Poké Balls and do battle. Emotional tug-of-war. Emo a emo. Outrage, I choose you! If they can be disgusted by gay sex, you can be even more disgusted by their bigotry, and if you manage to show it convincingly, you win!

And that, I do think is what you're advocating. Or if not you, many others in the A+/FTB sphere. That's why abusive language (as long as you're abusing the right people) is so cherished and "tone policing" is such an ultimate sin there. Trying to win this kind of emotional duel while being restricted to civil discourse would be like trying to win a hog-calling contest without waking up a sleeping baby.

And practically everything that neutral observers have objected to about how things are done at the Atheism Plus forums and FTB and other A+ enclaves is consistent with that. Throwing would-be allies under the bus for minor or purely imagined transgressions? Biased and capricious moderation? Intolerance of any alternative view no matter how moderate? That just helps show how powerfully emotional we are!

Well. You're not going to like what I have to say in this next part.

There's a name for that kind of emotional approach to argumentation, where the goal is to establish the moral superiority of your position by demonstrating how strong your own emotions are. It's called a tantrum.

Tantrums are very effective at some things. They get a lot of attention, from your opponent and from anyone else within earshot. They're noisy and memorable. They blow off a lot of steam built up by frustration. They assert your identity which for some will be a new and worthwhile experience.

But... they come up a bit short in the long-term-effectiveness department.

And yet, a better answer of what to base your argumentation on is right there in the first sentence of what you wrote, that I quoted above. Values.

Values are not emotions. They can be informed by emotions; they can be and often are also misinformed by emotions. Fundamentally, they are not directly tied to emotions; they are based on ideas or principles or judgments, and they can and should be evaluated and informed by reason.

Meaningful change means expanding the Common Ground.

Myriad said:
As difficult as expanding the Common Ground is, there are many ways to do it. But the most effective way, judging from history, is to work from inside the Common Ground outward. The key is to identify underlying principles already agreed upon, and apply them in new ways to matters not yet agreed on.


Emotion won't get you very far in that process.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
I think that effectively persuading people requires challenging on logical and emotional levels. I agree that we have to challenge people who we disagree with, but I think that we can't do that by dismissing the relevance of their emotions. I think exposure and appealing to other sentiments are necessary to persuade someone.

I completely agree, but I've been reading the last few pages and this seems to have gone from "emotion is an intellectual tool" to "emotions are relevant".

Emotion is not only relevant, it's paramount to having goals in the first place. Without emotion, we might as well be starving to death (who cares, right?). But, is it an intellectual tool? In what way it is a tool? At best, we can say what you said earlier: that we're not able to disconnect our reasoning from how we feel about an issue. But in what way do emotions help us get something right (in a factual sense, of course)?

It's more like emotions drive our intellect towards certain goals rather than emotions being a means of achieving intellectual prowess.

Dealing with other people's emotions is like a negotiation. We usually want to reach an agreement, but to put an extreme example, if the fact that I breath is emotionally distressing to another being, I wouldn't care at all about it, even if said being died of emotional distress. You try to reach some common ground, but sometimes game is over. Ultimately, me, first. No hurt feelings. ;)
 
You can decide that, since the dispute exists on an emotional level, it must be contested and resolved on an an emotional level. So, time to pull out your own emotions like so many Poké Balls and do battle. Emotional tug-of-war. Emo a emo. Outrage, I choose you! If they can be disgusted by gay sex, you can be even more disgusted by their bigotry, and if you manage to show it convincingly, you win!

Just wanted to say that that's a marvelous paragraph and it neatly describes far too many of the arguments that I've seen in far too many venues. I wish I'd written it.

I think it remains to be seen if it matches qwints' intent (I simply can't tell yet), but it certainly (devastatingly) fits some of the plussers.

Of course, from now on, when I see someone working up some righteous indignation, I'll remember the line "Emo a emo. Outrage, I choose you!" and then I'll be trying not to laugh . . .
 
Is common ground anything but 'common' these days?

Kudos again to Myriad. Well said. I must admit I've become reluctant to post itt lately as my ability to expatiate on my thoughts is so far below the aptitude displayed by the core of better posters here. I'm in awe. :)

I think as Myriad has done we need to examine the roots of the chasm that has developed with some members of the-dare I say-female contingent of the a/s communities. It's a small group, but as we all know the fairer sex :p is underrepresented in both arenas, so imo deserves special attention. And as others and Myriad again notes, productive communication begins with finding common ground. The irony is that there is so much of it between the two camps, yet some choose to focus only on the rather minor differences-many just semantics-in perspective. :boggled:
 
crikey. rebecca watson is making friends and influencing people again.

http://skepchick.org/2013/03/sxsw-and-reddits-introspection-problem/

drama just seems to follow her about, poor thing. would like to hear the audio recording of the talk.

During the section of the talk where members of the audience could line up at the microphone and make comments, Imgur.com founder Alan Schaaf tried to make a defense of Reddit. Rebecca interrupts him, and calls him "rude".



What's funny is that this panel consisted of 3 people, all critics of Reddit, at least two of whom are openly hostile to the site (Adrien Chen and Rebecca Watson). It doesn't look like there was anybody on the "pro" side?

Finally, this one line from her article leaped out at me:

Rebecca Watson said:
...I talked a bit about how I think that Reddit’s shared values of “freedom of speech” and anonymity combine with the “karma” voting system to create an ideal environment for the proliferation and normalization of bigotry and hate.

Yeah, that darn freedom of speech really is a nuisance, huh? If only we could do something about that...
 
It seems that there is a double standard at A+ as to who emotions and opinions are ok to dismiss.

You're not going to convince anyone with logic like that. Throwing a tantrum might have worked though ;)
 
You can decide that, since the dispute exists on an emotional level, it must be contested and resolved on an an emotional level. So, time to pull out your own emotions like so many Poké Balls and do battle. Emotional tug-of-war. Emo a emo. Outrage, I choose you! If they can be disgusted by gay sex, you can be even more disgusted by their bigotry, and if you manage to show it convincingly, you win!

And that, I do think is what you're advocating.

Indeed it is.
 
To be honest, if the audio recording shows that it did indeed go down as Watson is reporting there, then what she's saying seems entirely reasonable to me.

i didnt think the q+a guy did a very good job getting his point across. he did come across as rude in that clip.

whether she was as balanced and polite about reddit and its users (her audience) as she claims, is yet to be seen. she isnt known for her diplomacy skills and is known for her one sided reporting.

its a bit like three psychics doing a talk at tam about how evil jref and its users are, then acting surprised when the audience turns on her.

or if a radical feminist spoke at tam claiming skeptics are all misogyinist, woman haters....oops.
 
crikey. rebecca watson is making friends and influencing people again.

http://skepchick.org/2013/03/sxsw-and-reddits-introspection-problem/

drama just seems to follow her about, poor thing. would like to hear the audio recording of the talk.

Interestingly, SXSW is neither an atheist or a skeptic conference. As far as I know, most speakers are male and the majority of attendants are also male. I d not think that they have a "Code of Conduct" either. So what is the big fuss about TAM if she has no problem going to this conference.
 
qwints said:
You can decide that, since the dispute exists on an emotional level, it must be contested and resolved on an an emotional level. So, time to pull out your own emotions like so many Poké Balls and do battle. Emotional tug-of-war. Emo a emo. Outrage, I choose you! If they can be disgusted by gay sex, you can be even more disgusted by their bigotry, and if you manage to show it convincingly, you win!

And that, I do think is what you're advocating.

Indeed it is.

Can you understand why a group or "movement" that appeals to this sort of thing to resolve disputes with such regularity would irk many skeptics when they claim to be a skeptical movement? Or why Atheists would object to it being called an atheist movement?

I mean, a big part of how people move past religion is to consider the issue with as little emotion as possible. Emotional arguments are what is used by the religious in the debate(that and just basic ********). Most atheists didn't struggle with the logic of there being no god, it was the emotional part.

People often resort to emotional arguments when logical arguments fail. That is not to say that they can never be right if they resort to an emotional argument. Why is it a good thing to just skip the attempt at logical arguments, and appeal only to emotional ones, as so many at A+ do?
 
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