Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

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I suppose I can't tell hipster irony and hypocrisy apart. Oh well.
 
Moss said:
I suppose I can't tell hipster irony and hypocrisy apart. Oh well.
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I seem to have trouble telling 'hating' from 'eyerolling,' 'frothing outrage' from 'lack of conviction,' 'trolling' from 'expressing concern,' 'vicious attack' from 'disagreement.'

Sometimes the distinctions are clear. Other times . . . I suspect that some hyperbole and strawmanning may have crept into the discussion.
 
Antiquehunter said:
This just in - Jen McCreight spits the dummy, chucks the toys out of the sandbox and gives herself a timeout. http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/2012/09/goodbye-for-now/
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I feel quite sorry for the woman. She seems a perfectly decent person who wanted to make things better in general. However, if you want to see what the problem is, look at the comments section:

no thanks to you, you self-righteous smug sanctimonious a+++++++...

go and s****...

The s**** harassing JM are so far gone in hate...

F+++ the whole f$$$$$$ bunch of them. With a fxxxxxx tree...
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and my own personal favourite:

F### you haters …
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The people who like that kind of thing - like that kind of thing. The people who don't like that kind of thing - don't like it. And I don't really think that it matters to whom it's directed.

People who point this out on those forums are called "tone trolls". They soon learn that A+ is not the place for them.

Though I did note that someone was attracted by the forum:

I have a unique and intelligent mind that operates chiefly on logic, guided by an ever-evolving moral compass.
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Antiquehunter said:
This just in - Jen McCreight spits the dummy, chucks the toys out of the sandbox and gives herself a timeout. http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/2012/09/goodbye-for-now/

I've been hanging around in #atheismplus in the twattiverse for the past couple of days, and have chimed in a few times - and there has been NOTHING that was PERSONAL, attacking, or using ANY of the language Jen says got thrown her way. Now - maybe it was in other channels, maybe it was personally directed to her that I couldn't see. Maybe I'm a really bad Twitter user.

A) I am responsible only for my own actions. I didn't say anything hateful, or use any word stronger than a-hole or d-bag - which were levelled at me in the beginning. So it ain't me.

B) If you make yourself a public figure, then haters gonna hate. Unfortunately in the world of internet semi-anonymity, that can get pretty scary.

I am very sorry that the things she says happened to her happened - and I'm disheartened that the abuse apparently came from people who don't believe in some of the same stuff I don't believe in.

All smells like attention whoring to me.

Didn't I say I was going to sit on the sidelines...???
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Does this mean Atheism + is over? Didn't she invent it? Will someone else take over, or will she pursue it offline?
 
westprog said:
I feel quite sorry for the woman. She seems a perfectly decent person who wanted to make things better in general. However, if you want to see what the problem is, look at the comments section:
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Yes, what a loving bunch! Not at all like those other horrible, hateful atheists! Sheesh.

I think Jen did mean well, too. I had a pretty high opinion of her before this mess. She just seems unbelievable naive. I don't know how much of that you can write off to her being young. This looks like the progression of events:

1) I'm an atheist, and a feminist. Wow, wait...you mean not all atheists are feminists, too?! WTF???

2) Okay, I'm sick and tired of being flamed for my opinions! I'm gonna start an elite atheist club, so I can talk about this stuff without being flamed!

3) Aaarrrgghhh! Since I started my elite club of special, enlightened atheists, I've been getting flamed even more! WTF!! I'm taking my blog and going home!

I predict she'll be back in a week...two, tops, with some inspiring post about how "we can't let the bullies win, guys", and much cheering and back-patting from the A+ crowd.

I guess I was under the illusion that the atheism and skepticism communities were much more mature than other online communities...but, of course, that has all been thoroughly dashed. Everything concerning FtB, Skepchick, and A+ is a colossal embarrassment, even by Internet standards. If an outsider ever asked me to explain "Elevatorgate", I don't think that I could do it without my face turning red.

The funny thing is, you can't really lay the blame for any of this stuff with one person. Elevatorgate started out small, and didn't get big until PZ Myers and Phil Plait chimed in. (Plait with his "potential sexual assault" BS.) A+ didn't get big until PZ Myers (again!) and Richard Carrier spoke up. So, I think that Jen's catching a lot of flak for things other people said.

There seems to be some very hateful atheists out there, who have no problem directing their hatred not at the religious, but at other atheists. Since they've assured themselves that they've arrived at their conclusions through completely logical means, they have no reason to doubt themselves, and their dogma is iron-clad. It's all very unsettling.
 
Antiquehunter said:
This just in - Jen McCreight spits the dummy, chucks the toys out of the sandbox and gives herself a timeout. http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/2012/09/goodbye-for-now/

I've been hanging around in #atheismplus in the twattiverse for the past couple of days, and have chimed in a few times - and there has been NOTHING that was PERSONAL, attacking, or using ANY of the language Jen says got thrown her way. Now - maybe it was in other channels, maybe it was personally directed to her that I couldn't see. Maybe I'm a really bad Twitter user.

A) I am responsible only for my own actions. I didn't say anything hateful, or use any word stronger than a-hole or d-bag - which were levelled at me in the beginning. So it ain't me.

B) If you make yourself a public figure, then haters gonna hate. Unfortunately in the world of internet semi-anonymity, that can get pretty scary.

I am very sorry that the things she says happened to her happened - and I'm disheartened that the abuse apparently came from people who don't believe in some of the same stuff I don't believe in.

All smells like attention whoring to me.

Didn't I say I was going to sit on the sidelines...???
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McCreight writes: "Maybe the horde of haters will take up knitting as their new hobby, or a time machine will be invented and I can go back to when we were all happy giggling at creationists together without hurling slurs at any woman who dared to be too uppity."

Uhh yeah, but didn't you and your fellows start with saying that Dawkins is a dick/mean/whatever at every opportunity?
 
Axiom_Blade said:
Yes, what a loving bunch! Not at all like those other horrible, hateful atheists! Sheesh.

I think Jen did mean well, too. I had a pretty high opinion of her before this mess. She just seems unbelievable naive. I don't know how much of that you can write off to her being young. This looks like the progression of events:

1) I'm an atheist, and a feminist. Wow, wait...you mean not all atheists are feminists, too?! WTF???

2) Okay, I'm sick and tired of being flamed for my opinions! I'm gonna start an elite atheist club, so I can talk about this stuff without being flamed!

3) Aaarrrgghhh! Since I started my elite club of special, enlightened atheists, I've been getting flamed even more! WTF!! I'm taking my blog and going home!

I predict she'll be back in a week...two, tops, with some inspiring post about how "we can't let the bullies win, guys", and much cheering and back-patting from the A+ crowd.

I guess I was under the illusion that the atheism and skepticism communities were much more mature than other online communities...but, of course, that has all been thoroughly dashed. Everything concerning FtB, Skepchick, and A+ is a colossal embarrassment, even by Internet standards. If an outsider ever asked me to explain "Elevatorgate", I don't think that I could do it without my face turning red.

The funny thing is, you can't really lay the blame for any of this stuff with one person. Elevatorgate started out small, and didn't get big until PZ Myers and Phil Plait chimed in. (Plait with his "potential sexual assault" BS.) A+ didn't get big until PZ Myers (again!) and Richard Carrier spoke up. So, I think that Jen's catching a lot of flak for things other people said.

There seems to be some very hateful atheists out there, who have no problem directing their hatred not at the religious, but at other atheists. Since they've assured themselves that they've arrived at their conclusions through completely logical means, they have no reason to doubt themselves, and their dogma is iron-clad. It's all very unsettling.
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If you wanted to encapsulate PZ Myers to someone you'd never met, you'd probably find the highlighted text quite a good description. He's clearly no problem at all in insulting, denigrating and belittling people who hold the "wrong" views, and he's set the tone for a good bit of New Atheism. That it might end up turned on itself was never that unlikely.

I noticed that on that thread Dawkins was condemned for not speaking out about online abuse. As if the most prominent atheist in the world wasn't getting hate mail...
 
Axiom_Blade said:
Yes, what a loving bunch! Not at all like those other horrible, hateful atheists! Sheesh.

I think Jen did mean well, too. I had a pretty high opinion of her before this mess. She just seems unbelievable naive. I don't know how much of that you can write off to her being young. This looks like the progression of events:

1) I'm an atheist, and a feminist. Wow, wait...you mean not all atheists are feminists, too?! WTF???

2) Okay, I'm sick and tired of being flamed for my opinions! I'm gonna start an elite atheist club, so I can talk about this stuff without being flamed!

3) Aaarrrgghhh! Since I started my elite club of special, enlightened atheists, I've been getting flamed even more! WTF!! I'm taking my blog and going home!

I predict she'll be back in a week...two, tops, with some inspiring post about how "we can't let the bullies win, guys", and much cheering and back-patting from the A+ crowd.

I guess I was under the illusion that the atheism and skepticism communities were much more mature than other online communities...but, of course, that has all been thoroughly dashed. Everything concerning FtB, Skepchick, and A+ is a colossal embarrassment, even by Internet standards. If an outsider ever asked me to explain "Elevatorgate", I don't think that I could do it without my face turning red.

The funny thing is, you can't really lay the blame for any of this stuff with one person. Elevatorgate started out small, and didn't get big until PZ Myers and Phil Plait chimed in. (Plait with his "potential sexual assault" BS.) A+ didn't get big until PZ Myers (again!) and Richard Carrier spoke up. So, I think that Jen's catching a lot of flak for things other people said.

There seems to be some very hateful atheists out there, who have no problem directing their hatred not at the religious, but at other atheists. Since they've assured themselves that they've arrived at their conclusions through completely logical means, they have no reason to doubt themselves, and their dogma is iron-clad. It's all very unsettling.
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Good points. Especially the two I highlighted.
 
I must admit I find it somewhat amusing...

Sam Harris in 'The End of Faith' discusses why there is no such thing as a moderate in religion. The same guys who drive planes into buildings can't be excused away by people who say 'but that is those guys'.

And that is really my primary argument to people like Jen. I'm not the one threatening/abusing her. Nor do I endorse those who do.

But I don't control the internet.

Yet.
 
Antiquehunter said:
I must admit I find it somewhat amusing...

Sam Harris in 'The End of Faith' discusses why there is no such thing as a moderate in religion. The same guys who drive planes into buildings can't be excused away by people who say 'but that is those guys'.

And that is really my primary argument to people like Jen. I'm not the one threatening/abusing her. Nor do I endorse those who do.

But I don't control the internet.

Yet.
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It's a nice little controlled experiment of "is it ideology or behaviour that should concern us?"
 
tsig said:
So by blogging she was "Asking for it"?
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When you post your opinions on the Internet, you are inviting people to respond. I am not defending the rude responses. However, people have freedom of speech, and some of them use it to be rude.

What if I posted something critical of the US president, and got a flood of flames from Obama supporters? Was I "asking for it"?

This sentiment seems almost anti-feminist. What if this was PZ Myers instead Jen McCreight? Would people look at it the same way? I don't think so.
 
I was just exploring the Atheism Plus forums and noticed The Atheist posting over there... Any bets how long that lasts :p ?

There is a funny quote in a thread he started:

Okay, you seem to have wandered in here without doing your homework on Atheism+ in general or this forum in particular.

The Main forum is for people that already agree with the basic tenets of Atheism+ and want to move the conversation forward, rather than having to repeatedly rehash basic questions such as whether or not exploitation of women is misogynistic.

The Education forum is where you should go if you want to debate things that most of us have tentatively accepted as fact.

Please understand: you wouldn't walk into a chess master's club and demand that they teach you the basics of chess. That's not why they are there, and for that reason they would see your basic questioning as inconsiderate. The Main forum should be treated similarly. We're here to advance the discussion, not debate the basic foundations for the nth time.
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Linky.
 
Blocked by more Atheism+ers for merely stating that nothing on #atheism plus constitutes a threat against Jen. They're the ones telling me to F-off. Inclusiveness FTW.
 
westprog said:
If you wanted to encapsulate PZ Myers to someone you'd never met, you'd probably find the highlighted text quite a good description. He's clearly no problem at all in insulting, denigrating and belittling people who hold the "wrong" views, and he's set the tone for a good bit of New Atheism. That it might end up turned on itself was never that unlikely.

I noticed that on that thread Dawkins was condemned for not speaking out about online abuse. As if the most prominent atheist in the world wasn't getting hate mail...
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westprog said:
I noticed that on that thread Dawkins was condemned for not speaking out about online abuse. As if the most prominent atheist in the world wasn't getting hate mail...
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There's a video of Dawkins somewhere reading hate mail in front of a crackling fire.

Maybe Jen hasn't quite made the ingroup-outgroup distinction between the enlightened atheism+ crowd and the atheists who are sending her hate mail. It always hurts a bit more to be abused/betrayed by people on "your side". Where Dawkins can laugh off empty threats and idle curses from those deluded theists, I suspect it's harder, even for someone who's drawn a new line in the sand, to laugh off venom from one's (until quite recently) own.

Frankl divided people into "decent" and "indecent". Everyone spends some time in both groups, and it's easier to stomach hate mail when one can legitimately say that it's coming from someone who's given himself permission to be indecent. The 99 things upon which you and he might agree become sort of irrelevant at that point.
 
Tsukasa Buddha said:
I was just exploring the Atheism Plus forums and noticed The Atheist posting over there... Any bets how long that lasts :p ?

There is a funny quote in a thread he started:



Linky.
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The thread you have quoted is quite amazing. I thought skepticism was one of their bullet points.
 
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