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Atheism - Obvious Default?

Thor 2 said:
I think dann missed the point in spectacular fashion ynot.
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I often wonder if "they" miss the point or ignore it willfully for the sake of bloody-minded argument.

Thor 2 said:
There are male, female and even transgender atheists. Big ones, little ones, white ones, black and brown ones. Need I go on?
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Also atheists that believe there are no gods or claim to know there are no gods. So many types of atheists, too many theists ;).
 
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ynot said:
No - Ever wondered why people don't go to sleep as theists and wake up as atheists? Hint - They never lose their belief, they merely temporarily lose their consciousness of it, but they retain it subconsciously.
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No, I never wondered at all about that. But then again, I'm not the one who accepts only this defintion of atheism as valid: "Doesn't believe in a god or gods."
So apart from the addition to your silly definition: "Has a human brain and doesn't believe in a god or gods," I guess that you will now also have to add: "except when they are sleeping, but not if they're in the REM phase and happen to dream about gods. However, in that case they'll revert to atheism when they wake up."

(By the way, I wouldn't have any problem at all with calling an alien who didn't believe in gods an atheist, not even a transgender alien, and I'm pretty sure that it would be easier to have a sensible conversation with it than with the two of you, but I could say the same thing about somebody who's comatose. I still have to meet an atheist alien, though.)
 
dann said:
No, I never wondered at all about that. But then again, I'm not the one who accepts only this defintion of atheism as valid: "Doesn't believe in a god or gods."
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Sorry my mistake. That should read "Atheism = No/lack of belief in a god or gods". Atheism is a concept. It's an atheist that "doesn't believe".

dann said:
So apart from the addition to your silly definition: "Has a human brain and doesn't believe in a god or gods,"
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"Has a human brain" obviously only applies to humans like theists and atheists, not to concepts like theism and atheism.
 
I think a bunch of people here are concentrating on the wrong question. Whether a baby is born atheist or not is irrelevant. What we actually want to know is whether human beings have an innate tendency to see supernatural agency. And I think the fact that there has never been a human civilisation which has not had some sort of supernatural belief system strongly suggests that they do.
 
arthwollipot said:
I think a bunch of people here are concentrating on the wrong question. Whether a baby is born atheist or not is irrelevant. What we actually want to know is whether human beings have an innate tendency to see supernatural agency. And I think the fact that there has never been a human civilisation which has not had some sort of supernatural belief system strongly suggests that they do.
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Yes. A very strong tendency to posit a transcendence of the mere empirical and give that personal content.

Even many Atheists functionally do that by identifying with their own consciousness as a persisting entity, even if mortal. I've often seen people on this board declare matter the substance or substratum of their self. (Materialism being a metaphysical or ontological assertion of what that which is behind the empirical is made of.) Or by insisting upon a metaphysical, above-animal Free Will. Self as a spirit, or something in the mode of spirit is the root of the concept of gods, even if you're an atheist but unconsciously regard your self as one.

So as I've said, self is projected upon natural objects, processes, and elements. Self is projected as a spirit that transcends the empirical form.
A Great Spirit is projected for Nature as a cosmic body. Or the objectified Transcendence becomes a content outside the physical world: a tinkerer, designer, or creator in the image of Human activity and interaction.

This is especially strong, because storytelling is older for our species than rational explanations. The temptation to posit a Protagonist is very strong and takes a good deal of awareness to counter.

Personally, I've felt the presence of God many times. I can at will put myself in such a state of consciousness. I can also at will feel the spirit of a tree.
It's in knowing what I'm doing that these experiences don't still make a theist of me. I have a felt sense of those personal feelings having such a stamp of reality that I know better than to argue with a person who cites them as their reason to believe. Until they invest in some self-scrutiny, they will believe, rationalize that belief, and force fit empirical fact to it. The story is too enchanting.

BTW fear of thunderstorms and waving a magic feather at the clouds to produce rain was never the cause of my theism. Though I confess it was comforting to turn my worries over to a heavenly parent. Since those days I've learned accept reality.
 
arthwollipot said:
I think a bunch of people here are concentrating on the wrong question. Whether a baby is born atheist or not is irrelevant. What we actually want to know is whether human beings have an innate tendency to see supernatural agency. And I think the fact that there has never been a human civilisation which has not had some sort of supernatural belief system strongly suggests that they do.
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Who made you the authority on what's right or relevant in this thread? :p

Obviously they DID in more ignorant and superstitious previous civilizations, but they DO so far less in more educated and knowledgeable current civilizations (western at least). I think god beliefs are more a tendency to adopt a current cultural belief system than they are an innate tendency we are born with. I and others I know have no such innate tendency. If a thousand modern truth/science driven atheists started an isolated civilization I don't see any reason to expect it would every become theistic.
 
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ynot said:
If a thousand modern truth/science driven atheists started an isolated civilization I don't see any reason to expect it would every become theistic.
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Certainly not as long as long as the kept the momentum of Science and Rationalism, and maintained a single culture. I'd expect outliers, individuals who made of their mystical experiences something more than scientific explanations for such. Some individuals would certainly gravitate toward notions of a reality outside Science and find their own religious terms to speak of that. And a charismatic guru could find a following of people so inclined. But if the culture maintained a solid education in rational thinking and the suspension of narrative (mythical) thinking, it would not go Theistic.

(Though if the outliers went off on their own to another continent …)
 
HansMustermann said:
Well, I think we must really qualify here what kind of god.

The omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and omnibenevolent god of Xianity for example not only isn't a default, but it's a maximally counter-intuitive proposition that not even the xians can really work with. It gets twisted into something that isn't more than one of those at a time, or even none. E.g., god couldn't save those kids from the tsunami because he was busy fixing a football match across the globe. That's denying not just omnipresence, but even omnipotence (if he can't do two things at the same time, he isn't.) Or something happened because God wasn't paying attention. The moment you have to drop most attributes to make it work in any particular situation, it tells you that it's a concept that you can't fully wrap your head around even when you want to, much less have it as a natural a default.

At the other end of the spectrum, though, animism in various forms and to various degrees seems rather natural. And not far away from one of the child mental development stages. I wouldn't be surprised if, in the absence of other information, people would default to some form of it.
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I have always hated the term Xtian.
 
arthwollipot said:
I think a bunch of people here are concentrating on the wrong question. Whether a baby is born atheist or not is irrelevant. What we actually want to know is whether human beings have an innate tendency to see supernatural agency. And I think the fact that there has never been a human civilisation which has not had some sort of supernatural belief system strongly suggests that they do.
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ynot said:
Who made you the authority on what's right or relevant in this thread? :p

Obviously they DID in more ignorant and superstitious previous civilizations, but they DO so far less in more educated and knowledgeable current civilizations (western at least). I think god beliefs are more a tendency to adopt a current cultural belief system than they are an innate tendency we are born with. I and others I know have no such innate tendency. If a thousand modern truth/science driven atheists started an isolated civilization I don't see any reason to expect it would every become theistic.
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Well as the starter of this thread I suppose I have some authority about what questions are relevant. :)

I think that a baby starting off as an atheist is relevant and the environment the child is born into relevant also. I am sure Muslims will think the obvious default is to believe in God as described by Mohamed - the proof being that almost 100% of children in Islamic countries do so. Likewise Christians in overwhelmingly Christian countries (not that easy to find anymore) think the same in Christ God favour.

We find now however, in the newly emerging secular countries, that children are defaulting to zero belief in any kind of god, in increasing numbers. This I think is what Clive was inspired by, when he made the statement.
 
dann said:
No, not at all. If people lead fulfilling, comfortable and secure lives, i.e. when they don't have the need to invent and believe in supernatural things, they don't do so. When people's basic needs are met - and being able to feel safe and sound is a very basic need - they aren't tempted to look for imaginary comfort. When they are properly fed, the don't dream of pie in the sky.
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A lot of wealthy people are superstitious.

That's the reason why God is dying. It's not because our genes have suddenly changed.
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Fulfilling, comfortable, and secure lives are not a default condition. The kind of luxury we take for granted today is a fairly recent development. Our genes haven't changed, which suggests that as a species we're no more than one catastrophe away from a superstitious default state.
 
ynot said:
Added for more correctness and relevance.

A default behavior isn't a default belief.
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Your addition is incorrect.

"Religion" is not necessarily a supernatural belief. For example, communism is not a supernatural belief, but devotion to the ideology of communism can lead a society to all the same excesses as an entrenched theocracy: Dogma. Totalitarianism. Ideological persecution. All kinds of oppression and torture. Etc.

Historically, humans have often based religious practices on theistic or other supernatural beliefs. But even in modern societies that have rejected theism, we still see religious behavior.
 
Thor 2 said:
I would add ynot that any posting here who suggest that atheism is not the default position must be suggesting that theism is the default.
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I'm suggesting that neither are present at birth, but that as humans develop their default tendency is to develop some form of religion. It may be simply a vague and unexamined set of supernatural axioms. It may be a more explicit kind of superstition. It may even be a full-blown theism. If it lasts long enough, over several generations, it will likely evolve into a full-blown theism.

And I'm suggesting that even among humans who reject theism and superstition in all its forms, the default tendency is to develop some other kind of religious practice or belief system, and indulge to some degree in all the same behaviors as the religious theists.
 
theprestige said:
I'm suggesting that neither are present at birth, but that as humans develop their default tendency is to develop some form of religion. It may be simply a vague and unexamined set of supernatural axioms. It may be a more explicit kind of superstition. It may even be a full-blown theism. If it lasts long enough, over several generations, it will likely evolve into a full-blown theism.

And I'm suggesting that even among humans who reject theism and superstition in all its forms, the default tendency is to develop some other kind of religious practice or belief system, and indulge to some degree in all the same behaviors as the religious theists.
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Your making a lot of suggestions here. Some evidence would be welcome.

Re the highlighted: What sort of "behaviors as the religious theists" are you talking about? Hatred of others who don't believe exactly the same way as they themselves don't believe perhaps? :confused:
 
Thor 2 said:
Your making a lot of suggestions here. Some evidence would be welcome.

Re the highlighted: What sort of "behaviors as the religious theists" are you talking about? Hatred of others who don't believe exactly the same way as they themselves don't believe perhaps? : confused :
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My evidence is the same as yours: general review of humans through history.

Hatred, persecution, suppression, criminalization... Look at communism. Not a theistic ideology. But it has inspired religious fervor on par with the worst of the Catholic Church. Complete with crusades, inquisitions, and even anti-popes. All done not in the name of any god, but done in the name of a religion all the same.

Even if you get rid of the theos, if you don't get rid of the religious impulse, you haven't gotten rid of the problem.
 
dann said:
No, I don't think that atheism is a religion.
You are the one who makes the mistake of thinking that there is only one kind of atheism, and you argue from the point of view of the most absurd one of them: an absence of belief.
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I have no belief in any god or gods. You are telling me I am lying? Really?


dann said:
According to your definiton, anybody in a coma is an atheist: They have no consciousness, so they have no idea of anything at all, so they don't believe in gods.
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Now that is absurd. You are claiming that someone in a coma is secretly harbouring beliefs. Please provide evidence of such. You cannot.

If that person recovers, then one could check. So long as they do not, no statement can be made either way. But you seem to think you can.

dann said:
The faith of some atheists comes very close to religion!
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Atheism is a position on a single issue, the existence of a god or gods. It says **** all about any other beliefs any given atheist may hold. This is not rocket magic.
 
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