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I agree, but I'm getting this funny scenario in my head about this kid who just found out Santa was a lie, telling his schoolmates, "I'm an Asantaist now."
This is my thought also. It seems to me that some kind of supernaturality has to be the default. This is then shaped by the culture in which the person finds themself born.
Null hypothesis, yes, logically I agree. But evidence suggests otherwise. To me, at least.
Clive amused us with comments like: "advertising agencies for a product that doesn't exist" when describing religions, and saw atheism as the obvious default position to take.
Hard to argue against this presumption I think, given that children raised without being indoctrinated in a particular religion, tend to reject them all. Well this has been my observation anyway.
It's interesting that even if kids are sent to religious schools, (as a very high percentage are in Australia), they don't embrace the religion they are exposed to there. Parental shove seems necessary.
A good example of children going to a religious school and not embracing the religion of said school is illustrated well in a book by Edward Lewis Wallant called "Children at the Gate". Its about Jewish children going to a Catholic school.
In one sense - the boring sense - atheism is indeed the obvious default. It's obvious that humans aren't born with any in-built belief in a theos. If that's all that's being said, then it probably doesn't require much discussion.
In another sense, atheism isn't an obvious default at all. Quite the opposite: It seems pretty clear that the default behavior among humans is to invent and believe in supernatural things.
But more importantly, it seems like the default behavior of humans is to invent and practice religion. A lot of atheists seem to think theism is the problem. I think the real issue is the religious impulse in humans, regardless of whether it incorporates a theos or not.
Almost everything you wrote is what I was about to write in response to the previous quote, until I saw that you already had, except the highlighted bits.
Calling one's religion "comforting" is pretty uncommon. (I'd almost say it's uniquely Christian because I've heard the "comforting" thing nowhere else, but it wouldn't surprise me if somebody managed to dig up some rare obscure version of something that's non-comforting in its mainstream forms... especially Judaism or Islam, where it would hypothetically be easy to pick up from Christianity. But even Christianity still has a tendency to slip and expose that the "comfort" that's claimed to be there is a false modern disguise for its true ages-long nature as the worship of a god of fear, hatred, and suffering.)
Most religions treat their gods as just characters in stories, with various relationships with humans, from caring for us to hating us to ignoring us to making demands and needing to be appeased, so the forces of nature that they control end up having all kinds of effects on us from the best to the worst, whether deliberately or as a side effect of something else they were really after. With no pretense that it's all about love & comfort, they have no need to pretend that the bad-for-us behaviors by their gods are somehow driven by love in ways we can't understand; they can just call it what it is.
But yes, the thing about babies being born with no supernatural beliefs is a worthlessly trivial distraction to bother pointing out, and language is another good example of why, along with the combination of balance & motor control & coordination that it takes to walk bipedally and use tools and play sports. Babies being born without things that they are built to develop later is meaningless. And when it gets used as an argument about those things being unnatural and getting imposed on us instead of part of most people's own innate development, it shifts from meaningless to false.
I googled "comfort religion" and got "About 302.000.000 results (0,44 seconds)", and at least on the first paged they seemed relevant, i.e. not coincidental combinations of the two words.
I have mentioned Santeria before. Unlike Christianity, the gods (Orishas) in Santeria are neither omniscent nor omnipotent creatures. They are neither the vengeful Jahve nor the forgiving, self-sacrificing Christ, and there is no expectation of rewards for the meek in Paradise. The Orishas are much more like the Gods of Mount Olympos or Valhalla: capricious and egotistical like people. But they are still powerful, and you can still appease them. Even at a concert with the popular Afro-Cuban group Yoruba Andabo, you will see people from the audience approaching the Orisha dancers asking them (i.e. the Orishas that they incorporate) for favours, depending on the realms of life that they represent. If you want them to help with your love life, you go to Ochun, if it's your (male) sexual prowess, you go to Changó, if you can't get pregnant. He is also the god of thunder, an Afro-Cuban Thor. Yemaya is the Orisha of motherhood, Babalu Ayé is in charge of health and disease, Oya of hurricanes. And just to make sure, the dancers will go into the audience to make sure that everybody is blessed.
This is my translation of the (salsa) song ¿Y que tu quieres te den?, a kind of popularized introduction to Santeria:
They came from Africa
and stayed with us
all those warriors
who became part of my culture
Obatala of mercy,
Ochún is Charity,
Santa Barbara is Changó
and La Regla is Yemayá,
The ceremony is about to start
let's be charitable
The house is packed, there's no room for more,
And everyone wonders what Elegguá will say:
He opens the roads, that is the truth,
Let's give him coconut and see what he gives us.
People come and go
And everyone asks for whatever they want
I'm going to ask for good things for my mom
and tranquility for my family,
That everyone on this earth
Are good and war stops.
There are people who tell you that they don't believe in anything
and go to consult (the Orishas) in the early morning
Don't be sad, ask for something for yourself,
Don't ask for bad things that you will regret
This is the comfort that religion gives you: The belief/comfort that you can influence the things that are beyond your control. Incurable disease, infertility, the forces of nature.
And even when we watch all the supernatural monsters of horror movies, they still tell us that we are control of them to some extent even when (or in particular when) they scare the **** out of us: If we are American teenagers, it seems to be mainly about not having sex!
I know! It's a weird thing to have to give up in order to appease the gods, but a very Christian one. I don't think that the Orishas would ask you to sacrifice that. They usually want only rum or sweets.
No, not at all. If people lead fulfilling, comfortable and secure lives, i.e. when they don't have the need to invent and believe in supernatural things, they don't do so. When people's basic needs are met - and being able to feel safe and sound is a very basic need - they aren't tempted to look for imaginary comfort. When they are properly fed, the don't dream of pie in the sky.
That's the reason why God is dying. It's not because our genes have suddenly changed.
The Orishas only want rum and sweets for the easy stuff. The placebos. The confirmation bias. The comforting superstition. For the serious stuff - vast wealth, immortality, raising the dead - the price gets pretty steep pretty quick.
The Orishas only want rum and sweets for the easy stuff. The placebos. The confirmation bias. The comforting superstition. For the serious stuff - vast wealth, immortality, raising the dead - the price gets pretty steep pretty quick.
Yes, it probably does. (And in Santeria you can also find babalawos who abuse their position to take advantage of people asking for the "easy stuff.") But I haven't seen anybody ask for what you call the "serious stuff," here or in Cuba.
In one sense - the boring sense - atheism is indeed the obvious default. It's obvious that humans aren't born with any in-built belief in a theos. If that's all that's being said, then it probably doesn't require much discussion.
In another sense, atheism isn't an obvious default at all. Quite the opposite: It seems pretty clear that the default behavior among humans is to invent and believe in supernatural things.
But more importantly, it seems like the default behavior of humans is to invent and practice religion.
You (and many others) conflate "default" and "common". It's common to have religious and other supernatural beliefs because such beliefs have been historically common and actively promoted. I'm nearly 69 and have never had a single god/supernatural belief. This isn't currently common (one day I naively hope), but it's far from unique.
A lot of atheists seem to think theism is the problem. I think the real issue is the religious impulse in humans, regardless of whether it incorporates a theos or not.
Yes, it probably does. (And in Santeria you can also find babalawos who abuse their position to take advantage of people asking for the "easy stuff.") But I haven't seen anybody ask for what you call the "serious stuff," here or in Cuba.
Why would what you have or haven't seen be significant?
Have you spent so much time in Cuba that you must surely know about every human sacrifice to raise the dead? Have you really penetrated the mysteries of every santeria practice on the island of Cuba?
But yes, the thing about babies being born with no supernatural beliefs is a worthlessly trivial distraction to bother pointing out, and language is another good example of why, along with the combination of balance & motor control & coordination that it takes to walk bipedally and use tools and play sports. Babies being born without things that they are built to develop later is meaningless. And when it gets used as an argument about those things being unnatural and getting imposed on us instead of part of most people's own innate development, it shifts from meaningless to false.
Without parents and other trusted adult authority influences telling kids "Santa exists and is real", at what age would kids believe Santa exists and is real by default? Replace "Santa" with any "god" of your choice,
Without parents and other trusted adult authority influences telling kids "Santa is real", at what age would kids believe Santa is real by default? Replace "Santa" with any "god" of your choice,
Silly question - If nobody is born with a "Santa exists and is real" belief, where did the first parents get the "Santa exists and is real" belief they passed on to their children? Do you believe everyone is born with a "Santa exists and is real" belief?
If everyone is born with religion, why do they need parents to pass it on at all?
If everyone is born with religion, how come different people are born with different religions, that just happen to be the religions of their parents/community (usually)?
That developing human brains have the default ability to develop beliefs doesn't mean any particular beliefs are a default of human brains.
In one sense - the boring sense - atheism is indeed the obvious default. It's obvious that humans aren't born with any in-built belief in a theos. If that's all that's being said, then it probably doesn't require much discussion.
In another sense, atheism isn't an obvious default at all. Quite the opposite: It seems pretty clear that the default behavior among humans is to invent and believe in supernatural things.
But more importantly, it seems like the default behavior of humans is to invent and practice religion. A lot of atheists seem to think theism is the problem. I think the real issue is the religious impulse in humans, regardless of whether it incorporates a theos or not.
Why would what you have or haven't seen be significant?
Have you spent so much time in Cuba that you must surely know about every human sacrifice to raise the dead? Have you really penetrated the mysteries of every santeria practice on the island of Cuba?
You're the one who came up with the idea that: "For the serious stuff - vast wealth, immortality, raising the dead - the price gets pretty steep pretty quick."
I merely said that I haven't seen it, so you appear to be the one who claims to have "penetrated the mysteries of every santeria practice on the island of Cuba."
Exactly! The idea appears to be that somebody, the great manipulator, once invented religion and indoctrinated everybody else, and then it has been passed on by parents, generation after generation. However, it doesn't explain why people are drawn to religion. Nor does it explain why (some) people stop believing, but it's usually implied that it's because they're so ******* brilliant that they were able to logically deduce that there is no God, unlike the others who weren't.
No, not at all. If people lead fulfilling, comfortable and secure lives, i.e. when they don't have the need to invent and believe in supernatural things, they don't do so. When people's basic needs are met - and being able to feel safe and sound is a very basic need - they aren't tempted to look for imaginary comfort. When they are properly fed, the don't dream of pie in the sky.
That's the reason why God is dying. It's not because our genes have suddenly changed.
I'm curious what your evidence is for this. It seems plausible but when you look at the most atheist countries, its a grab bag of prosperous western countries and not so prosperous former communist countries.
Without parents and other trusted adult authority influences telling kids "Santa exists and is real", at what age would kids believe Santa exists and is real by default? Replace "Santa" with any "god" of your choice,
I don't think anyone is saying that believe in any particular god is the default but rather a tendency to believe in the supernatural causative thing. This can be filled by any number of gods or other super natural entities. All the parents and society seem to do is answer the question, "who is responsible for this!"
It really does seem as though the human default is to look at the world and go, "Isn't this amazing, there must have been something that created it?" Even if Dann is correct and that's only the default for folks who don't have all of there needs fulfilled, that's still the default for most people for most of history.
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