Atheism is a faith.

[soarwing]

I'm getting to that stage....

I think about my atheism less and less each day. At first I felt like I had been kicked in the groin, then it felt like I was waking up - well rested - out of a coma.

I wondered how anyone can be in that coma...... LIKE I WAS.

I don't hide my atheism anymore. It took me a long time to "come out", because I was afraid that people - my family especially - would look down on me or abandon me. Turns out, my fears were prophetic to a large degree, but now I realize that these fears were only going to be temporary and unpleasant side effects to getting on with living without faith.

People that are much smarter than I will ever be, still believe in God. There isn't really a coma from which to wake up. It's more like a pleasant daydream - one that can be entirely worth having at times. I know that when it comes right down to it, I could be wrong about the matter. If I hold anything as an article of faith, it's that if a creator-god actually exists, it won't be bothered or angry in the slightest about what I think of it.

The gods that I am personally aware of - quite suspiciously - seem too much like the people that created them. Puny and Infantile gods that pale in comparison to the alleged creation itself. The god that created black holes, white hot stars, the planets and the seas....... probably has written Earth off as a failure by now.....

.... what with religion and all.

 

[soarwing]

Nobly conceded.

Its hard to have these types of arguments without getting a little hot. Indeed I had a thread about an argument with my family. But I got the impression that you were essentially being "shunned" by your family, and that would be sad (and angering).



Yes, it sounds very familiar, especially the "being happier now" part. It is amazing how often believers just assume we are sad or bitter. Huntster likes to claim (one can only assume because he has ESP) that we are "mad at God".


I always fall back on The Rubaiyat for better words than mine...

Nice.

And thank you.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Tricky
Yes, it sounds very familiar, especially the "being happier now" part. It is amazing how often believers just assume we are sad or bitter. Huntster likes to claim (one can only assume because he has ESP) that we are "mad at God".

The other day I was thinking just how little I really dwell on my atheism now. For devout theists their religion is usually central to their lives. But if it weren't for some religious people trying to legislate their faith in order to force their values on me I would probably think about gods almost as rarely as I think about the tooth fairy.

That post doesn't reflect any anger towards God. It reflects an opposition towards those religious people who are "trying to legislate their faith in order to force their values on me."

And I'm not among them. I do oppose the opposite legislation, but really don't give much of a damn what Zygote believes or disbelieves.

 

[Foster Zygote]

That post doesn't reflect any anger towards God. It reflects an opposition towards those religious people who are "trying to legislate their faith in order to force their values on me."

Correct. But I would add that it also doesn't reflect any anger toward religious people in general. I will resist any attempts by the religious or the secular to infringe upon my freedom. But as long as the religious respect my rights I'm happy to co-exist with them.

And I'm not among them.

Commendable.

I do oppose the opposite legislation, but really don't give much of a damn what Zygote believes or disbelieves.

I may be misunderstanding you, but I'm guessing that you mean you oppose secular legislation infringing on freedom of religion. I'm with you 100%.

 

[Mr Clingford]

People that are much smarter than I will ever be, still believe in God. There isn't really a coma from which to wake up. It's more like a pleasant daydream - one that can be entirely worth having at times. I know that when it comes right down to it, I could be wrong about the matter. If I hold anything as an article of faith, it's that if a creator-god actually exists, it won't be bothered or angry in the slightest about what I think of it.

I also believe that no-one knows for sure, either way. If there is a God remotely like the one that I believe exists he rejoices in people being freed from oppression, whatever kind, and isn't angry. As I believe that spending time in God's company is good for the soul he would wish, I think, that at some point you are able to do that (perhaps you already are, I dunno).

The gods that I am personally aware of - quite suspiciously - seem too much like the people that created them. Puny and Infantile gods that pale in comparison to the alleged creation itself. The god that created black holes, white hot stars, the planets and the seas....... probably has written Earth off as a failure by now.....

.... what with religion and all.

Someone on another board I am on said something like 'You know that you have created God in your own image when he hates all the things that you do'. May be God has more faith in the future of humans - you have found freedom!

 

[soarwing]

I also believe that no-one knows for sure, either way. If there is a God remotely like the one that I believe exists he rejoices in people being freed from oppression, whatever kind, and isn't angry. As I believe that spending time in God's company is good for the soul he would wish, I think, that at some point you are able to do that (perhaps you already are, I dunno).

- - -

I'd like to believe in the kind of god you describe. On some level, I feel like there should be a god like that. If I define "God" as the feelings I get when I'm enjoying solitude in the woods, watching the sunrise while I'm flying over the lakeshore, or while getting my downriggers ready for some salmon fishing, then I spend all kinds of time in God's company. I am thankful to be alive for these things and even the not-so-good things too. But in that sense, I don't understand the need for the word "God". God, if it exists, becomes a nebulous something, using unknowable powers, for unknowable reasons, decided to create something else. I don't think the universe requires a cause any more than a god does. At least I can see, understand and define parts of the universe.

I also agree that no one knows for sure. But I do not think that agnosticism is a logical position. You either believe in at least one god or you do not. In my mind, if you define the god you believe in as a feeling or by what you think this god should be like - without any way to demonstrate its specific existence or characteristics, then you have belief in a a god anyway. If you're not sure that you believe or do not believe in god, you are confused.... but still flip-flopping between atheism and theism. Agnosticism is a soothing way to say that you're an atheist, but are willing to be convinced by evidence. Or on the other hand, it's also a way to say that you believe in a god, but are willing to entertain and rationally consider evidence that refutes that belief.

I struggle with the idea that there is some sort of middle ground on this issue.

Someone on another board I am on said something like 'You know that you have created God in your own image when he hates all the things that you do'. May be God has more faith in the future of humans - you have found freedom!

If a god is perfect, he can't be angry, be faithful, have desires or needs. If a god is perfectly good and cannot commit evil acts, he is amoral - - and his "goodness" must come from somewhere else.

The Biblical god doesn't stand up to reason very well.

Nice discussion.... I'm enjoying it very much.

 

[soarwing]

Yes, it sounds very familiar, especially the "being happier now" part. It is amazing how often believers just assume we are sad or bitter. Huntster likes to claim (one can only assume because he has ESP) that we are "mad at God".

- - -

In other words, all "atheists" are really just believers who are pissed at the big guy. They still believe.... they're just saying they don't?

Well if that's the case, from a Biblical point of view, we're all believers - however imperfect - and Jesus' death was in vain.

Or was there a "believe AND REPENT" clause somewhere in the salvation scheme? I don't recall that part in John 3:16. Yeah yeah,,, I know... even the Devil believes in God.....

No wonder there are so many denominations.

By the way: Huntster and I both "bleev" in bigfoot to one degree or another. How ironic can it get?

 

[Tricky]

- - -

In other words, all "atheists" are really just believers who are pissed at the big guy. They still believe.... they're just saying they don't?

Well if that's the case, from a Biblical point of view, we're all believers - however imperfect - and Jesus' death was in vain.

Or was there a "believe AND REPENT" clause somewhere in the salvation scheme? I don't recall that part in John 3:16. Yeah yeah,,, I know... even the Devil believes in God.....

That does indeed seem to be some people's viewpoint. They say that to even discuss God means you believe in Him and have rejected him. Obviously, such things as the FSM, IPUs, and GTITS* demonstrate this fallacy. Few Christians will use the same logic and say that to discuss the Flying Spaghetti Monster, you must first believe in his noodly appendage, and then reject it.

By the way: Huntster and I both "bleev" in bigfoot to one degree or another. How ironic can it get?

Everybody is skeptical about some things and not of others. I try to be skeptical about as many things as I can, but I acknowledge that there will always be some things I take on faith.

*Flying Spaghetti Monster, Invisible Purple Unicorns, Great Taco In The Sky

 

[Tricky]

I may be misunderstanding you, but I'm guessing that you mean you oppose secular legislation infringing on freedom of religion. I'm with you 100%.

As per my usual modus operandi, I shall once again lapse into hopeless pedantry:

There are and should be laws infringing on all kinds of freedom. Absolute freedom is anarchy. We should, for example, pass legislation on religions which advocate and perform genital mutilation of young girls. We should pass laws that prohibit practices that are physically abusive. We have already passed laws against religions that practice polygamy. Frankly, I think there ought to be a "snake handling" law too because underage people could be "inspired" to handle the serpents.

But I'm sure you meant "freedom as long as you aren't harming anyone or breaking any laws", which is not exactly the same as being 100% for freedom.

 

[pgwenthold]

That does indeed seem to be some people's viewpoint. They say that to even discuss God means you believe in Him and have rejected him. Obviously, such things as the FSM, IPUs, and GTITS* demonstrate this fallacy.

Actually, it is even simpler than that. My wife and I discuss Harry Potter all the time, but that doesn't mean we believe he is a real person.

I think the better counter-argument to the "if you discuss him you must believe in him" claim is to go to bring up fictional literature. Even if it is Sherlock Holmes, as soon as you get them to acknowledge that they will discuss fictional characters, then they might grasp how silly the claim is.

 

[Tricky]

Actually, it is even simpler than that. My wife and I discuss Harry Potter all the time, but that doesn't mean we believe he is a real person.

I think the better counter-argument to the "if you discuss him you must believe in him" claim is to go to bring up fictional literature. Even if it is Sherlock Holmes, as soon as you get them to acknowledge that they will discuss fictional characters, then they might grasp how silly the claim is.

Very true. And you don't bother to preface every statement with, "The fictional character, Harry Potter..."
But somehow, because we don't issue a disclaimer every time that when we are discussing the various concepts of God, including the Christian concept, we are (sometimes) told that we must certainly believe since we speak of Him like He was real and talk about His characteristics and what we don't like about Him.

So what do you think will happen to Harry? Is he going to survive the final battle with Lord Voldemort? And if he doesn't, will he go to heaven?

 

[pgwenthold]

So what do you think will happen to Harry? Is he going to survive the final battle with Lord Voldemort? And if he doesn't, will he go to heaven?

Of course he will survive. I predicted after the 4th book or so that the series would end with Harry being named the youngest Headmaster in Hogwarts history.

 

[cadmar]

Atheism is not about belief, it is a biologically state in which the user's neurons are not turned on (as in with words, sounds), but this process is off. This is a state of biology. Words are dead, like a typed word to another typed word on a page. Beliefs, thoughts are only turning on these dead words. Atheism is the state in which these thoughts , neurons are not turned on. When you say atheism is a belief, you are using the process of turning on, switching on words, thought process. You are in the world of labels. Atheism is a state in which this switch is not turned on.

 

[skeptic griggsy]

I prefer calling myself a rationalist,naturalist,or humanist as atheism is a negation and the other terms are positive.Then anaturalists , irrationalists, and ahumanists put the other side in the negative and because I also deny the paranormla which some atheists embrace.I also call myself an ignostic as I see God as vapid, with no contact to reality.