Astral Projection - Verification?

[John Jones]

They're not into astral projection, actually kind of aversive to it, I wouldn't want to make them do something they didn't want to.

Then you do it.

 

[Mojo]

I have difficulty achieving it and my friends aren't willing to do it.

When you say that you "have difficulty achieving it", do you mean that you can do it with difficulty or that you can't do it?

Do your "friends" claim that they can do it?

 

[arthwollipot]

Then I wonder if an experiment like this can succeed what makes or breaks them.

I'll tell you what breaks them. Proper controls. Eliminating the possibility of chance guessing or cheating. The more loose and fluffy the experiment, the more likely it is that it will "succeed". The more strongly controlled it is, the less likely it is.

Show me a test where a person has apparently demonstrated some kind of psychic ability, and I'll show you a test that lacks proper controls.

Haven't skeptics and believers been shown the same evidence for things and one believes and the other doesn't? I've been thinking these debates have more to do with the psychology of people than the facts, at least in some cases.

No, that's not the case at all. That's what the believers would like to think, but it's not true.

Skeptics have a higher standard for evidence than believers do. Skeptics want to be really, really sure that the results seen actually demonstrate some kind of phenomenon, and not someone cheating or getting success by chance. Believers don't care. Believers will accept anything that confirms what they already believe, regardless of whether it's rigorous or not.

 

[GnaGnaMan]

Would someone accurately reporting a series of digits after "seeing them" "out of body" prove that consciousness can exist independently of the body?

Suppose you were to fly a drone with a camera somewhere. On a screen you see what the drone sees. Does that mean your consciousness is there?

If you fitted 2 cameras like eyes and used something like occulus rift then you might feel as if you were really where the drone is. Does that mean your consciousness is there?

In any case, it would not show consciousness being independent of the body.

 

[GnaGnaMan]

The answer to the OP is yes, a properly conducted, well designed test under controlled conditions which had results that exceeded the pre-agreed success criteria would indeed provide evidence for the existence of astral projection. Just as properly conducted tests have provided evidence of everything from the wave nature of light to the Higgs Boson.

Sadly all such tests have so far yielded no positive results, so there is currently no evidence for astral projection.

Not true. The experiment discussed (particularly using 5 digits) bears an uncanny resemblance to a certain experiment conducted by Charles Tart.

 

[Bikewer]

Be aware that James Randi has already conducted such an experiment, free to all to participate.
He suspended a wire basket from the ceiling of his office, with a note inside, face up. People capable of either astral projection or "remote viewing" were invited to read the note.
No one ever did.

One wag complained that Randi's staff were turning out the lights at night, so the note couldn't be read. (Apparently you can't astral-project during the day?)
Randi obligingly left the lights on, but still no one read the note.

 

[Wonder234]

Then you do it.

I might keep trying, but I haven't been able to pull it off after months of trying.

 

[Wonder234]

When you say that you "have difficulty achieving it", do you mean that you can do it with difficulty or that you can't do it?

Do your "friends" claim that they can do it?

Can't do it. Friends do not claim they can do it.

 

[Mojo]

Can't do it. Friends do not claim they can do it.

So what exactly did you mean when you said that your friends "aren't willing to do it", or that you "wouldn't want to make them do something they didn't want to"?

 

[SusanB-M1]

Do you know that the soul doesn't exist? I don't know if the soul exists. It would be great if I could be agnostic and impartial about it but you don't really control being convinced of something. I don't know, it just seems like a flaw in human nature to me that people just don't remain agnostic about things they don't know.

Since, to date, there is zero evidence for a soul able to be isolated and separated from the human body, I have no reason at all to believe that there is. To be scientifically precise, I know that I must allow a very small margin for error, but for me this is so vanishingly small, that I do not spend much time considering it.

Your use of the word 'agnostic' sounds a bit vague. Could you please state precisely what you undderstand by this?

 

[Craig4]

I do not have much knowledge about how science is carried out so I might not be able to answer that to your satisfaction.

One way to design the experiment is have the person picked up from one location, and taken to building unknown to the subject. There, the subject surrenders their clothing and is provided a hospital gown, randomly selected from a stack and removed from the factory packaging. That person is locked in in a room without windows, phones or electronics of any kind.

In a separate room, a series of pictures are displayed. You could number a catalog of pictures and roll dice to select say 10 out of 100. Then, have the person select from the catalog which pictures were displayed in the room.

 

[arthwollipot]

I might keep trying, but I haven't been able to pull it off after months of trying.

Can't do it. Friends do not claim they can do it.

A good working hypothesis is that no-one can do it. Certainly, no-one has ever demonstrated the ability to do it.

 

[Armitage72]

Of course, astral projection would have to be a real thing first. Happened to me twice and I am stone cold convinced that they are very vivid hallucinations, like lucid dreaming.

Several decades ago, I read a "textbook" on Golden Dawn-style ritual magic, which included a chapter teaching how to astral project. It bore a striking resemblance to guided imagery (I think that's the right term).

"Imagine yourself leaving your body and walking around the room. Imagine yourself looking out the window. Imagine yourself examining something that's sitting on the table."
As I recall, the idea was that if you imagine often enough, hard enough, it will actually happen, and you won't just be imagining any more. It sounds a lot like programming yourself to have a lucid dream.

 

[Thermal]

Several decades ago, I read a "textbook" on Golden Dawn-style ritual magic, which included a chapter teaching how to astral project. It bore a striking resemblance to guided imagery (I think that's the right term).

"Imagine yourself leaving your body and walking around the room. Imagine yourself looking out the window. Imagine yourself examining something that's sitting on the table."
As I recall, the idea was that if you imagine often enough, hard enough, it will actually happen, and you won't just be imagining any more. It sounds a lot like programming yourself to have a lucid dream.

Mine were spontaneous, both in times of perceived danger that I couldn't control. Kind of the head's way of saying 'I'm outta here, gonna see how this works out from the sidelines'.

 

[Cat Not Included]

How does "seeing" things while astral projecting work anyway? Vision is a fairly well-understood physical process by which reflected photons trigger various sensing cells in the eyes. Whatever an astral body is, it certainly doesn't have physical cells to sense anything, so by what mechanic could you possibly "see"?

If astral projection somehow was a real thing, wouldn't it more likely that however you would sense in such a state would be as different from regular vision as any other senses are from each other?

 

[CORed]

Five digits.

How many times was it repeated? Once could be luck (low probability obviously). Multiple times, if properly controlled (and especially if there aren't "misses") is either some kind of cheating or the real deal.

 

[Max_mang]

I doubt you'll ever get anyone to take the test. As stated in an earlier post, Randi had his note available for a long time and no one ever tried. In my own personal experience, I've met 3 people who claimed they could astral project. They loved talking about it and telling me all the things they could do. As soon as I asked any of them to do a simple test - like reading a note on my kitchen table - the conversation was over.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Then I wonder if an experiment like this can succeed what makes or breaks them.

What "makes or breaks them" should whether the personal can actually do what they claim to be able to do, sometimes it actually comes down to whether or not they can get away with cheating.

 

[dlorde]

If quantum field theory is a good model of how our universe behaves (and apparently it's not failed yet), these out-of-body experiences can't be real (i.e. they're imaginary). There are no fields or forces that could support such effects. Any undiscovered fields or forces must be either too weak or too short range - or we'd have already discovered them.

If neuroscience is correct in identifying consciousness as patterns of neural activity in the brain (the available evidence indicates this is the case), then consciousness can't leave the body (it's a process).

Either way, it looks like they're fooling themselves, and, as Feynman said, "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."

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[P.J. Denyer]

If quantum field theory is a good model of how our universe behaves (and apparently it's not failed yet), these out-of-body experiences can't be real (i.e. they're imaginary). There are no fields or forces that could support such effects. Any undiscovered fields or forces must be either too weak or too short range - or we'd have already discovered them.

If neuroscience is correct in identifying consciousness as patterns of neural activity in the brain (the available evidence indicates this is the case), then consciousness can't leave the body (it's a process).

Either way, it looks like they're fooling themselves, and, as Feynman said, "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."

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The person that needs to read this is noticeably absent. As is seemingly becoming his habit.