Assistance required for telepathy proof

Akhenaten said:
I think I was wondering about something similar (it's hard to tell with all the double-guessiing involved in these 'tests').

I want to know what happens to the ??% poly-thingy if someone writes down "pumpkin".
Click to expand...

It proves they were lying and can read his mind. You're new here, aren't you.
 
RoboTimbo said:
Wouldn't it be easier to get rid of the polygraph, which we know is unreliable, since golfy assumes everyone lies about reading his thoughts?

If they say they heard ship, the real answer is they heard cat.
Click to expand...

Then they'd just lie about lying. These liars are a devious bunch. No, for this to work, golfy needs to telepathically convey the message "free beer in room #201" and then monitor how many test subjects head to room #201.
 
golfy said:
No it does not stand, you just do not understand the test and are confused because there are only two answer choices.

The test relies on the other person lying. If they heard me telepathically and a 100% accurate poly was used, then the indication as the GSR gave of not lying on the first question and lying on the second question would be 100% accurate.

This would mean that she has lied at a 100% certainly level that she did not have the other word to the word that I have. You could therefore conclude with 100% accuracy that she has a different word to me – I have ship, therefore she has with 100% certainty cat. Therefore she can hear my thoughts with 100% certainty Pixel42.
Click to expand...
You're only considering what the result of the experiment would be if you do have the ability to send your thoughts. That's possibility one:

1. You do have telepathic ability
========================

The Doctor hears your thoughts, but says 'no' to both choices. If the polygraph is 100% accurate, it will show her to be lying when asked if it was the card you actually sent, and telling the truth when asked if it was the other one.

Now let's consider what happens for possibility two:

2. You do not have telepathic ability
===========================

Your doctor does not hear your thoughts, so doesn't actually know whether you're seeing a cat or a ship. So she just assumes whichever one happens to pop into her mind first is the one you're sending. There's a 50% chance it will be the one you actually sent, and a 50% chance it won't be. She says 'no' for both, but she's lying when asked if it's the card she happened to think of, and telling the truth is it's the one she didn't happen to think of. So if the polygraph is 100% accurate it will show her to be lying when asked if it's the card she happened to think of, and telling the truth when asked if it was the card she didn't think of.

Can you see that, even if you don't have any telepathic ability, and even if the polygraph is 100% accurate, there's still a 50% chance of getting a positive result in any single experiment? So you need to do the experiment many many times and show that you get positive results a lot more often than 50% of the time before you can conclude that you have any telepathic ability.
 
golfy said:
I actually thought to her “You have a lovely shaped mouth, and pretty eyes. Very attractive.” At that point she tilted her head to the side and slightly back and then smiled sweetly. This to me is confirmation from years of experience of doing these types of visual “tests” that she can her my thoughts. I did a few other tests as well which I will not go through as they are all the same format – think words that should have a specific effect on the other person and study any changes in their demeanour after a period of observing them to see how they are before I think to them. Compare one with the other and make a conclusion.
Click to expand...
Are you sure she is not reading your body language rather than your thoughts? Instead of sending the thought "You have a lovely shaped mouth, and pretty eyes", you could have tried "You left the key to your house at home". That would have been more difficult to signal with body language.
 
RoboTimbo said:
Wouldn't it be easier to get rid of the polygraph, which we know is unreliable, since golfy assumes everyone lies about reading his thoughts?

If they say they heard ship, the real answer is they heard cat.
Click to expand...

VizziniGolfy: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would say "cat" when he hears "ship"? Now, a clever man would say "cat," because he would know that only a great fool would trust him to say "ship." I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose "ship." But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose "cat."
 
Pixel42 said:
You're only considering what the result of the experiment would be if you do have the ability to send your thoughts. That's possibility one:

1. You do have telepathic ability
========================

The Doctor hears your thoughts, but says 'no' to both choices. If the polygraph is 100% accurate, it will show her to be lying when asked if it was the card you actually sent, and telling the truth when asked if it was the other one.

Now let's consider what happens for possibility two:

2. You do not have telepathic ability
===========================

Your doctor does not hear your thoughts, so doesn't actually know whether you're seeing a cat or a ship. So she just assumes whichever one happens to pop into her mind first is the one you're sending. There's a 50% chance it will be the one you actually sent, and a 50% chance it won't be. She says 'no' for both, but she's lying when asked if it's the card she happened to think of, and telling the truth is it's the one she didn't happen to think of. So if the polygraph is 100% accurate it will show her to be lying when asked if it's the card she happened to think of, and telling the truth when asked if it was the card she didn't think of.

Can you see that, even if you don't have any telepathic ability, and even if the polygraph is 100% accurate, there's still a 50% chance of getting a positive result in any single experiment? So you need to do the experiment many many times and show that you get positive results a lot more often than 50% of the time before you can conclude that you have any telepathic ability.
Click to expand...


Not only that, but if you listened to the recording, the doctor basically said "I don't know" (not "no") in both cases. So if she could actually hear golfy's thoughts, she was lying both times.
 
golfy said:
I actually thought to her “You have a lovely shaped mouth, and pretty eyes. Very attractive.” At that point she tilted her head to the side and slightly back and then smiled sweetly. This to me is confirmation from years of experience of doing these types of visual “tests” that she can her my thoughts. I did a few other tests as well which I will not go through as they are all the same format – think words that should have a specific effect on the other person and study any changes in their demeanour after a period of observing them to see how they are before I think to them. Compare one with the other and make a conclusion.
Click to expand...

Realizing that schizophrenic people will go to almost any lengths to keep their delusions alive, so this may be a moot point...

It occurs to me that you've chosen to communicate a thought that would produce a very subtle reaction if spoken. You're also confident that she didn't bother to hide an easily suppressed reaction to fool you into thinking you weren't telepathic.

What about a self-test (admittedly an uncontrolled one, that you'd need to be honest to yourself about for it to have any value) in which you communicate something where the reaction would be obvious and difficult to suppress?

Instead of communicating something as bland as "You look nice today," how about "OMG! The bookcase behind you is starting to tip!" For an honest self-test, it would need to be done where the person couldn't see you and you'd have to refrain from any sudden motion or noise. For a true paranormal test, of course, it would need to be done where no possibility communication could occur other than telepathically.

I expect that a person willing to lie about whether they heard "cat" or "ship" but willing to give away telepathy with a smile, would certainly give it away by reacting to a warning about their own safety.

But, of course, choosing to observe subtle reactions is a way to fool oneself into believing in telepathy, since people go through subtle expression changes and body-language changes all day long and one can find a match fairly often. Suddenly looking behind while jumping forward, not so much.
 
steenkh said:
Are you sure she is not reading your body language rather than your thoughts?
Click to expand...


^^^This. Golfy, you seem to have concluded an awful lot from a (very) few instances of your personal interpretation of your doctor's nonverbal reaction to (what you assume was) her hearing your thoughts. Granted, your interpretation of the events is one possibility. Here are a few others, all of which are far more likely:

• She was reacting not to your thoughts, but to the fact that you were (possibly unknowingly) giving her goo-goo eyes while thinking at her.

• She was thinking of something else entirely, and reacting to that rather than to your thoughts.

• You exaggerated or misinterpreted her reaction into what you clearly wanted it to be, as people tend to do.

• You tried this "experiment" many times, with her and/or other doctors, and you're focusing on the few times it gave you the results you wanted while ignoring the many times it didn't.

How have you concluded that your interpretation is right, and all those are wrong?
 
AdMan said:
Not only that, but if you listened to the recording, the doctor basically said "I don't know" (not "no") in both cases. So if she could actually hear golfy's thoughts, she was lying both times.
Click to expand...

^^ This ^^

By answering "I have no idea" or "I don't know" to both questions, the doctor either lied when answering both questions or told the truth when answering both questions, but the 'poly' showed a big reading for one answer but not the other... thus showing that the 'poly', as used, was totally unreliable.
 
I want to know what happens to the ??% poly-thingy if someone writes down "pumpkin".
Click to expand...


If you applied some thought before asking stupid questions, you would realise that the test would always come up with lie on "Do you have a different word to me".

Therefore the test would be right again - they have written a different word down to the one I have (cat or ship) and another +ve result would be added to the counter.

golfy
 
Your doctor does not hear your thoughts, so doesn't actually know whether you're seeing a cat or a ship. So she just assumes whichever one happens to pop into her mind first is the one you're sending. There's a 50% chance it will be the one you actually sent, and a 50% chance it won't be. She says 'no' for both, but she's lying when asked if it's the card she happened to think of, and telling the truth is it's the one she didn't happen to think of. So if the polygraph is 100% accurate it will show her to be lying when asked if it's the card she happened to think of, and telling the truth when asked if it was the card she didn't think of.

Can you see that, even if you don't have any telepathic ability, and even if the polygraph is 100% accurate, there's still a 50% chance of getting a positive result in any single experiment? So you need to do the experiment many many times and show that you get positive results a lot more often than 50% of the time before you can conclude that you have any telepathic ability.
Click to expand...


This is incorrect. The 100% poly would indicate two lies or two non lies (probably two non lies) as both answers would illicit the same response. Have you written the same word as me or have you written a different word to me would be an “I genuinely do not know the answer” mental response – not a lie – 100% poly would not indicate a lie based on imagination. A poly works on actions that you have physically done such as “Did you rob the bank”. If you imagine that you robbed a bank and then were asked “Did you rob the bank” but had not done, a poly will indicate that you did not rob it.

People do not get stressed about what they imagine they have done when on a poly – only stressed on actions they have actually done and want to cover up. State of mind (imagination) does not show up as lies.

golfy
 
golfy said:
This is incorrect. The 100% poly would indicate two lies or two non lies (probably two non lies) as both answers would illicit the same response. Have you written the same word as me or have you written a different word to me would be an
Click to expand...
 
What about a self-test (admittedly an uncontrolled one, that you'd need to be honest to yourself about for it to have any value) in which you communicate something where the reaction would be obvious and difficult to suppress?
Click to expand...


I have tried the obvious as you suggest. I thought to a man who I was talking to in a room, a quiet conversation in mid flow. My thoughts were "You stink, I can smell you from here!" He went bright red and looked very embarrassed. I then thought "Only joking, I just wanted to see if you could hear my thoughts." He calmed down visibly.

I have tried this kind of test hundreds of times. I am certain people can hear me telepathically.

You will of course tell me I am wrong etc. The only accepted proof will be a working cat ship test or similar of about 99% certainty or more which is what I am trying to achieve at the moment.

golfy
 
Last edited:
golfy said:
If you applied some thought before asking stupid questions, you would realise that the test would always come up with lie on "Do you have a different word to me".

Therefore the test would be right again - they have written a different word down to the one I have (cat or ship) and another +ve result would be added to the counter.

golfy
Click to expand...


What if you transmit "cat" and your victim writes down "kat" and they claim to have written down the same word, which they have, sort of, except that they haven't really.

How many lights will that illuminate?

Also, what happens if a bird lands on to the window sill just when you're about to transmit "ship" and you think "bird" at the other person involuntarily?

Will it count as a hit if they write down "twit"?
 
dlorde said:
By answering "I have no idea" or "I don't know" to both questions, the doctor either lied when answering both questions or told the truth when answering both questions, but the 'poly' showed a big reading for one answer but not the other... thus showing that the 'poly', as used, was totally unreliable.
Click to expand...


I agree. I decided to listen to the recording again, to make sure I was remembering it correctly.

For those who haven't listened to it and for future reference, here is the most relevant bit (I may have misheard a word or two, but I think it's close enough). Keep in mind this is golfy's one successful test that he's mentioned here:

golfy (g): So I'm going to ask you a question... I'm thinking of the word I've written down.
doctor (d): Mm-hmm.
g: Did you write down the same word that I wrote down? And you are to answer me 'No' all the time. Did you write down the same word that I wrote down?
d: I've no idea 'cause I don't know what word you wrote down.
g: OK. Did you write down a different word than I wrote down?
d: I've no idea.
g: All right, that's gone to the highest reading, the other one was low, and that one's high, therefore, the second question was 'did you write a different word than I wrote down' and I've written down 'ship', therefore you should have 'cat'. And which word did you write down?
d: Well, I wrote down 'cat', but--
g: Exactly. So there you go. Now how would you--why were you stressed on the second word and not on the first word? Because you showed no stress on this first word, and a lot of stress on the second word, so the second word I asked you, 'Did you write down a different word to me?' and you said 'No' or 'I've got no idea'.
d: No, I said, 'I have no idea'.
g: Yeah, but that's avoiding the question. So you showed no stress in the first question, I wrote--
d: But I said I had no idea if I'd written down the same word, either--
g: Exactly.
d: So I don't think your test actually proves anything at all.
Click to expand...


golfy, I know that to you this test represents virtually unassailable proof of your telepathy, and it's very unlikely anything posted here will change your mind. But you should realize that virtually everyone else hearing your recording will very likely agree with your doctor.
 
AdMan said:
Not only that, but if you listened to the recording, the doctor basically said "I don't know" (not "no") in both cases. So if she could actually hear golfy's thoughts, she was lying both times.
Click to expand...
Good point. The experiment has yet to be run once, yet alone the dozens of times it would need to be run - even if the protocol was sound - to produce meaningful results, because the only time it was tried so far the protocol was not followed correctly.

dlorde said:
By answering "I have no idea" or "I don't know" to both questions, the doctor either lied when answering both questions or told the truth when answering both questions, but the 'poly' showed a big reading for one answer but not the other... thus showing that the 'poly', as used, was totally unreliable.
Click to expand...
Another good point. Either the polygraph should have shown she was lying both times (if she really was hearing golfy's thoughts) or telling the truth both times (if she really wasn't). Yet it showed markedly different responses. So what has actually been established by this first faulty run is that golfy's polygraph is unreliable, and therefore the protocol is not sound.

golfy said:
This is incorrect. The 100% poly would indicate two lies or two non lies (probably two non lies) as both answers would illicit the same response.
Click to expand...
If you are wrong about being telepathic you are also wrong about everyone lying to you about it. So you need to consider what the result of your experiment would be if you are not only not telepathic, but if the receiver in your experiment is actually doing their best to co-operate and genuinely trying to receive whatever image you are sending. In that frame of mind it's entirely possible that they will, for the purposes of the experiment and in an attempt to be as fair to you as possible, assume that whichever image first pops into their head came from you, and will therefore respond differently to the two questions. You certainly need to take that possibility into account, which means that your baseline success rate that you have to beat is the chance 50% rate, not 0%.
 
Pixel42 said:
but if the receiver in your experiment is actually doing their best to co-operate and genuinely trying to receive whatever image you are sending. In that frame of mind it's entirely possible that they will, for the purposes of the experiment and in an attempt to be as fair to you as possible, assume that whichever image first pops into their head came from you, .
Click to expand...

I’ve been reading this thread with much interest over the last few days… And one thing has been popping in and out of my mind as I read is this…

Golfy. Let us for the time being assume that you do have telepathic abilities and can indeed send your thoughts to another mind. You have said yourself that you can’t receive other people’s thoughts, so how do you know what reaction someone would have receiving an “outside” thought? In other words the people that receive your thoughts do not believe that the thoughts they are receiving originate from outside of their own mind. They believe the thoughts are their own; In this case they would not be lying if you asked if they got the word you thought of. I know that when I think I’m certain that what I think comes from me. I can’t imagine what an Outside thought would be like.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom