Assistance required for telepathy proof

[Rasmus]

...

Why don't you just get back to us after you have scientific proof for your abilities? And by that I mean proof that is widely accepted by such, as opposed to a few individual crackpots that I am sure you would be able to find even within the academic field.

 

[chillzero]

golfy,
This thread is to discuss your protocol. There are other threads in this section for discussing the ins and outs of the Challenge, or you could start another to discuss the legitimacy of the media requirement (unless there's a thread already - I just cant think of one offhand).

 

[golfy]

I did. You state your misconception that the JREF might allow a polagraph anyway.

In light of the news that you definitely may not use one: Do you intend to apply anyway, golfy?

If the JREF refuse a polygraph in a pre-proven protocol and experiment then I would not be eligible to apply if it was the only way I could prove telepathy at that point in time.

Please see post 300.

golfy

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Do you think that the JREF prize would be relevant once I have proven my telepathic ability and received the backup of a University and had exposure in the Media? I am not saying it would not be relevant, I am just asking your opinion if it would be relevant after proof has been accomplished and has been shown to be valid on international TV stations. What would that do for me? Whatever it accomplished, it is bound to dilute the requirement to win the MDC.

If that happened and the JREF still refused to accept the protocol which has under scientific scrutiny been shown to be valid, there would be a distinct possibility of the JREF being accused of using their “Media Presence Required” stipulation in their screening process for applicants, which could then be seen as being used as a screening process for the JREF to eliminate people from their tests who could actually win the MDC so that they don’t actually ever have to give the MD prize to anyone and in fact this could then open themselves up to being labelled as no better a bunch of charlatans and tricksters than the people they are purporting to oust.

Do you think they would allow this to happen to them? It would definitely remove their credibility as investigators of paranormal claimants and would engineer distrust from others within the community that they have tried so hard to gain the trust of and the perception of honesty that they currently posses would be removed.

Not a good move. I don’t think they would do it in the light of the publicity they would gain by actually associating themselves with a genuinely telepathic person as well a being ousters of the crooked. That to me would be the direction to go in. They could possibly make more than the value of the MDC prize from publicity, sponsorship etc which would have been generated by someone actually winning the challenge anyway so why would they refuse the use of a polygraph – you tell me.

It may be of more value to the JREF for someone to actually win the prize. Have you read and read into the MDC rules?

golfy

Your problem is: You do not have evidence.

Neither do you possess the qualifications to have your application accepted by the JREF.

Do you still intend to apply for the Prize, golfy? If so, what are the steps you intend to take?

 

[GzuzKryzt]

If the JREF refuse a polygraph in a pre-proven protocol and experiment then I would not be eligible to apply if it was the only way I could prove telepathy at that point in time.

Please see post 300.

golfy

The JREF does refuse a polygraph - as you very well know. Hence, you can't apply with your current protocol.

Since I do not see you taking a different approach: What is the point of your continued posting in this subforum when you do not intend to apply?

 

[Dumb All Over]

If the JREF refuse a polygraph in a pre-proven protocol and experiment then I would not be eligible to apply if it was the only way I could prove telepathy at that point in time.

Please see post 300.

golfy

Well, well, then. You have just deduced that you are not eligible to apply. The JREF has quite clearly told you that a polygraph is not acceptable.

There is no need to continue this thread. Thanks for playing our little game, golfy. Come back sometime when you can propose a protocol that does not require a polygraph and when you have met the other MDC criteria. Until then, good luck!

 

[wahrheit]

Do you think that ... would be ... would not be ... would be ...

If that happened ... would be ... could then be seen as ... could actually win the MDC ... this could then open ...

... they would ... It would ... would engineer ... would be removed.

... would do it ... would gain ... would be ... They could ... would have ... would they ...

...may be ...

Golfy, there is definitely too much subjunctive in your previous post.

If you really have telepathic powers, just do it.

All these excursions into would-be-could-be land will not advance you in regards to the MDC or any other evidence-based test of your abilities.

 

[golfy]

JREF Rules

4. Applicant agrees that all data (photographic, recorded, written, etc.) gathered as a result of the set-up, the protocol, and the actual testing, may be used freely by the JREF.

I assume that this is in their rules so that when they have an actual applicant on video for the first time in the history of mankind (or since video was invented) who is actually demonstrating genuine paranormal ability it would be in the JREFs interest to have it in their website instead of it being one someone else’s. They DVD etc rights would dwarf the MDC prize in revenues alone so why would the not allow a polygraph to be used in the test?

If they stipulate that it cannot be used then I would simply make the video, have the book rights etc somewhere else.

Can the JREF researcher please confirm from the highest level with the JREF itself (JR?) that if I were to actually scientifically demonstrate telepathic ability outside the JREF using a polygraph that the JREF would not allow me to enter the MDC?

golfy

 

[Rasmus]

Thanks wahrheit, very well put!

golfy,

whatever your ability and your convictions: You haven't done anything yet. You have nothing to show for. You have no evidence.

People here are very willing to entertain the idea that you might be right. They have been very supportive and helpful so far.

If we reject your suggestions it is not out of malice, but because your ideas are not good enough.

If you are honestly interested in taking the challenge then please listen to us. Address our concerns. Show that you care for and understand what we are saying.

No, you are not obliged to do as I ask. But I assure you that dealing with the JREF will not be any easier. Not one bit.

I would ask you to read through the protocol that I suggested earlier. I am confident - despite everything that has been said - that it might show a way in which you could prevent participants from being untruthful to your own satisfaction without introducing ambiguities or opportunities to cheat.

I am not certain and the JREF might not allow it after all, but it is as close to your original proposal as I could manage.

So, if you think people here treat you unfairly, keep that in mind: There is a draft protocol for you that tries to accommodate both your needs and the requirements of the JREF. It isn't exactly what you expected and it isn't exactly what the JREF said it wanted. But I think it meets the requirements of both sides.

It's yours to use, modify or criticise if you really want to take the challenge. I only ask that you are just as sincere and courteous in return. (You can keep the 100,000$, too....)

 

[golfy]

If the JREF were to make a hypothetical $50 million from DVD sales, book right etc as they have the rights to any video, protocol, experimental results etc, isn’t the MDC simply a way of buying in a story that they can publish to make millions. If I were to prove I was telepathic outside of the MDC, perhaps it would be wiser to not go for the MDC and to publish and obtain the book rights and DVD revenues for a company which I set up for my own benefit, instead of theirs.

golfy

 

[golfy]

If the JREF were to make a hypothetical $50 million from DVD sales, book right etc as they have the rights to any video, protocol, experimental results etc, isn’t the MDC simply a way of buying in a story that they can publish to make millions. If I were to prove I was telepathic outside of the MDC, perhaps it would be wiser to not go for the MDC and to publish and obtain the book rights and DVD revenues for a company which I set up for my own benefit, instead of theirs.

golfy

 

[GzuzKryzt]

JREF Rules

4. Applicant agrees that all data (photographic, recorded, written, etc.) gathered as a result of the set-up, the protocol, and the actual testing, may be used freely by the JREF.

I assume that this is in their rules so that when they have an actual applicant on video for the first time in the history of mankind (or since video was invented) who is actually demonstrating genuine paranormal ability it would be in the JREFs interest to have it in their website instead of it being one someone else’s. They DVD etc rights would dwarf the MDC prize in revenues alone so why would the not allow a polygraph to be used in the test?

If they stipulate that it cannot be used then I would simply make the video, have the book rights etc somewhere else.

Do it.

Can the JREF researcher please confirm from the highest level with the JREF itself (JR?) that if I were to actually scientifically demonstrate telepathic ability outside the JREF using a polygraph that the JREF would not allow me to enter the MDC?

golfy

You have to ask the JREF directly: challenge@randi.org

In my opinion, using a polygraph does not qualify as scientific demonstration, because a polygraph can be unreliable. Using a polygraph seems to be quite the opposite of a scientific approach.

The forum members - excluding JREF Staff e.g. RemieV, Jeff Wagg, etc. - have no authority to speak for the JREF. Asking the forum members merely helps you weed out possible problems with your protocol, etc. Or not.

 

[Cuddles]

This subforum is solely for discussing the Million Dollar Challenge and applications for it. Golfy, if you wish to apply for the challenge and discuss problems with your elligibility and protocol, please do so. If the thread carries on in the same way with no prospect of an application actually occuring, this thread will be moved to a more appropriate section.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles

 

[GzuzKryzt]

This subforum is solely for discussing the Million Dollar Challenge and applications for it. Golfy, if you wish to apply for the challenge and discuss problems with your elligibility and protocol, please do so. If the thread carries on in the same way with no prospect of an application actually occuring, this thread will be moved to a more appropriate section.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles

Spoilsport.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

If the JREF were to make a hypothetical $50 million from DVD sales, book right etc as they have the rights to any video, protocol, experimental results etc, isn’t the MDC simply a way of buying in a story that they can publish to make millions.

No.

If I were to prove I was telepathic outside of the MDC, perhaps it would be wiser to not go for the MDC and to publish and obtain the book rights and DVD revenues for a company which I set up for my own benefit, instead of theirs.

golfy

Do it.

[Jack Bauer]

Now!

[/Jack Bauer]



Does this mean you will not apply for the Challenge, golfy?

 

[Loss Leader]

They DVD etc rights would dwarf the MDC prize in revenues alone so why would the not allow a polygraph to be used in the test?

It really doesn't matter why they won't allow a polygraph. All that matters is that they don't allow a polygraph - just like the fact that every human being on earth lies about your psychic abilities. We ask you why you think everyone lies to you but you keep insisting that the only important detail is the unchangeable fact that people lie.

A JREF staff member has told you they will not accept a protocol with a lie detector in it. The argument over whether they should allow a lie detector is over. It has been decided. The only remaining question is whether you will acknowledge this. Change your proposal or quietly fade away. Continuing to talk about lie detectors is pointless.

 

[golfy]

I am not going to apply for the MDC untill I have a working experiment which has media attention and the back up of an academic.

I don't have that at the moment but I will be participating in some GSR experiments later on as I told you yesterday - why keep on asking the same questions?

golfy

 

[GzuzKryzt]

I am not going to apply for the MDC untill I have a working experiment which has media attention and the back up of an academic.

I don't have that at the moment but I will be participating in some GSR experiments later on as I told you yesterday - why keep on asking the same questions?

golfy

Because you seem to have a hard time answering simple and direct questions. Such as this one:

Why do you continue to post in the Million Dollar Challenge subforum if you do not intend to apply, golfy?

 

[Czarcasm]

I am not going to apply for the MDC untill I have a working experiment which has media attention and the back up of an academic.

I don't have that at the moment but I will be participating in some GSR experiments later on as I told you yesterday - why keep on asking the same questions?

golfy

Because some of the questions which are important have yet to be answered by you, such as: Why do you think everyone lies about receiving your telepathic messages?

 

[golfy]

Because you seem to have a hard time answering simple and direct questions. Such as this one:

Why do you continue to post in the Million Dollar Challenge subforum if you do not intend to apply, golfy?

I am finding this difficult to answer such obvious questions which should be self explanatory and not even need answering without resorting to criticism.

If I were to start to obtain reliable experimental proof that confirm that I am telepathic I would then take the route of having those results confirmed my an academic and then attempt to obtain media coverage. At that point I would have satisfied the JREF requirements apart from the protocol or use of a GSR or polygraph and would then take advice on whether it would be worthwhile to then go for the MDC.

Untill I have satisfied the requirements it would totally foolhardy to apply. As I don’t have the results yet and I can’t categorically state when I will have them, then how can I decide whether or not I will be applying.

golfy