Assistance required for telepathy proof

[Pup]

This one is even easier to defeat if you can manipulate the polygraph. The receiver now needs to encode the sequence number of the test on each sheet. And the sheet is conveniently marked with 10 intervals, which gives him lots of room to encode the info.

Golfy then looks at the chart, reads the encoded sequence number and, knowing it is the 3'd test, say's, yep look, this is the one for "blue". Of course others won't see it that way, but Golfy is the judge.

The problem is that as long has you have these two conditions:

1. A receiver who can manipulate the polygraph.
2. The charts are shown to Golfy who interprets them.

You have opened a commincation channel that should not be there. Controlling for it is probably not impossible, but it is not easy.

IXP

Yep, there's the flaw. Thank you! The receiver would just need to stress on the first word of the first chart, the second word of the second, etc. to "label" the order of the charts.

Can't figure right now how to avoid that, either.

 

[Czarcasm]

The protocol would be such that if communication is shown to be present that it would be of the paranormal kind and would therefore prove that I am telepathic as I would be doing nothing else but thinking to the receiver from a remote location and the receiver would be shown to be reacting to my thoughts by some means such as measurement by GSR.

And if no communication is shown to be present in a test approved by you beforehand, would you accept the result as evidence that you might not have a paranormal ability?

 

[golfy]

If a polygraph was used with just the GSR channel and the countermeasures channel active then the countermeasures channel would indicate when the receiver was inputting false readings by using body stress, hence why I wanted to use a polygraph. A polygraph is not a lie detector but an instrument with many (poly) graphs on its output. The persons physiological responses are then shown on the graphs and the stress can be easily be shown to be increasing (or decreasing) at a certain point as per the GSR plots that have been posted. A correlation is then looked for between when I was asked to think by the JREF and the graph printouts from the polygraph from the receiver.

golfy

 

[chillzero]

Czarcasm,

The kind of test the JREF will accept is one that shows communication of a paranormal kind as it eliminates all other forms of communication that we currently understand exists today such as mobile phones, verbal communication, sign language etc.

.... and also all need for interpretation, and any possibility of cheating (either side). That's what people have tried to help you with here.

There of course has to be some kind of correlation between me transmitting and the GSR response on the receiver.

And that correlation needs to be clear, and apparent and unquestionable - i.e. not open to any form of interpretation.

If you don’t understand what the MDC is all about, please refrain from posting.

I don't know why you have such an issue with Czarcasm, as several people are trying to communicate with you here, but if you would look through some of the other threads in this section you would see that s/he has a very clear understandign of the MDC.

In fact, this thread alone shows it, although you seem to be really reluctant to read anything that disagrees with your world view. If you really want an experiment that holds water and has no holes that skeptics or critics can pick holes in, then addressing the points and concerns raised by skeptics would be a good way to go about it. Consider the satisfaction in proving us wrong by addressing our own points.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Czarcasm,

The kind of test the JREF will accept is one that shows communication of a paranormal kind as it eliminates all other forms of communication that we currently understand exists today such as mobile phones, verbal communication, sign language etc. The protocol would be such that if communication is shown to be present that it would be of the paranormal kind and would therefore prove that I am telepathic as I would be doing nothing else but thinking to the receiver from a remote location and the receiver would be shown to be reacting to my thoughts by some means such as measurement by GSR. There of course has to be some kind of correlation between me transmitting and the GSR response on the receiver.

If you don’t understand what the MDC is all about, please refrain from posting.

golfy

How exactly - exactly - do you intend to achieve falsifiability in this scenario?

 

[Rasmus]

Czarcasm,

The kind of test the JREF will accept is one that shows communication of a paranormal kind as it eliminates all other forms of communication that we currently understand exists today such as mobile phones, verbal communication, sign language etc.

Almost right. It will show either that or simply nothing at all. It might just show that there is no telepathic communication going on.

The protocol would be such that if communication is shown to be present that it would be of the paranormal kind and would therefore prove that I am telepathic as I would be doing nothing else but thinking to the receiver from a remote location and the receiver would be shown to be reacting to my thoughts by some means such as measurement by GSR.

For some values of "by some means such as", yes.

There of course has to be some kind of correlation between me transmitting and the GSR response on the receiver.

Again, it is doubtful that "some kind of correlation" will be an acceptable condition for the challenge. It is likewise doubtful that you will be allowed to judge the GSR response unless previously discussed forms of manipulation/communication are ruled out.

If you don’t understand what the MDC is all about, please refrain from posting.

Charming. This might well serve to at least demonstrate why some people would cheat on you even if they stood to lose a large chunk of money...

 

[Czarcasm]

I don't know why you have such an issue with Czarcasm, as several people are trying to communicate with you here, but if you would look through some of the other threads in this section you would see that s/he has a very clear understandign of the MDC.

We prefer the term transgender.

 

[Quinn]

Golfy, let me take a shot at another way of phrasing a question that others here have asked you. Imagine a scenario in which you design a test whose protocol you are completely satisfied with; one that you are certain will unerringly demonstrate your (or anyone else's) telepathic ability when it is present. The details aren't important; just for the moment, assume you're able to design a perfect test.

With me so far? Good. Now imagine that you take this test, which you have designed, and the results do not show telepathic ability on your part. In this hypothetical situation, would you then reconsider the possibility that you are not actually telepathic, or would you merely assume that something had gone wrong with the test?

If you are a rational person, as you claim to be, then the correct answer is, "Yes, I would then have to consider the possibility that I am not actually telepathic, and that my previous conclusion that I was telepathic was erroneous." Because you see, if that is not a possibility that you are willing to entertain, at least at the hypothetical level, then you have already negated the point of testing, and placed yourself outside the realm of science and into the realm of magical thinking.

NOTE: Responding with something like, "It doesn't matter, because I KNOW I'm telepathic, so any properly done test will show positive results anyway," will get you booed very loudly. If you don't understand why that is, then you've got a long way to go.

 

[golfy]

Hi Cillzero,

Since I arrived on the forum which a perfectly acceptable protocol that has been misinterpreted and then the misinterpretation has been criticised I see little point in endlessly correcting what I see as inane statements like “Can you think of a test that would convince you that you do not have the ability you are claiming, golfy? You see, that is the only kind of test that will be acceptable for the MDC.” What kind of rubbish is that? It is either suggesting that the JREF won’t accept any test that would prove I am telepathic or some other ridiculous argument.

Czarcasm seems obsessed with trying to get me to acknowledge that I may not be telepathic when I already know that I am – he is just trying to weaken me mentally and doesn’t add anything constructive to the forum from my point of view so I ignore his obsession. I am not hear to discuss the losing of the MDC, but to try and win it. What are you guys, losers trying to recruit another candidate?

I have a protocol which is foolproof which I am sure the JREF would accept, I am telepathic and as long as the JREF will accept a polygraph in the experiment then I have gained nothing from this forum.

I would be better off perfecting my stimulus to the point where it is repeatable and then go from there.

I can’t prove you wrong on a forum, all you will accept is total proof after an experiment has been done which proves my claim so no more discussion is required. If I take that experiment to the JREF and they accept the protocol and after tests with them have completed and the conclusion is that I am indeed telepathic the likes of Czarcasm will probably say I have conned the JREF. With people like that who don’t understand the basic test and what they mean I am better of thinking on my own and proving you wrong later on. I am not interested in his opinion.

You have to make logical sense for me to listen to you and sorry guys, you don’t.

FLS however, did.

I will not get to the JREF by listening to people who say I can’t make it, I’ll get there by ignoring them.

golfy

 

[alfaniner]

golfy, have you read the entire terms of the Challenge, and the associated FAQ?

Please reply using the Quote feature, quoting this post, so that I and everyone reading this thread will know that you have read the post and responded accordingly.

I will pose this question on every page if necessary.

 

[Pup]

I see little point in endlessly correcting what I see as inane statements like “Can you think of a test that would convince you that you do not have the ability you are claiming, golfy? You see, that is the only kind of test that will be acceptable for the MDC.” What kind of rubbish is that? It is either suggesting that the JREF won’t accept any test that would prove I am telepathic or some other ridiculous argument.

I'd suggest you try very hard to understand that statement, because it's not inane, and it's crucial to any kind of dialog about the MDC. Or any use of the scientific method to investigate things in general, for that matter.

People aren't saying the results of the test must prove you're not telepathic. People are saying that the test must have a possible outcome which would prove you're not telepathic.

It's not crucial to designing a test of the MDC. Testees can go away convinced they still have powers that just didn't work that day, if they want. But it is crucial if you genuinely want to learn about your abilities through scientific testing.

In other words, you need to design a test that you could pass if you had telepathy, but if you failed, the only logical reason for the failure would be that you didn't have telepathy. No excuses like "I'm really telepathic but the receiver lied" or "the machine wasn't operated correctly" or "it only works under different conditions," or whatever. If you succeed it proves you have telepathy. If you fail, it proves you don't.

Otherwise--and this is how people fool themselves into thinking they have superpowers--you could go on endlessly retesting yourself, using a different excuse each time about why you failed, while believing that any random successes were genuine evidence of telepathy.

That's not the scientific method. That's just using mind games to reinforce a delusion.

A true investigation by the scientific method would count the failures as proof against telepathy, just as strongly as it would count the successes as evidence for telepathy.

 

[golfy]

Hi Quinn,

I totally see your point and what you are asking.

Unfortunately I have been aware of being telepathic for around 13 to 14 years and went through this by myself a long time ago. It was suggested it could be things like mobile phone gangs, thumbnail sketches, bugging devices, gypsy mind readers etc and at the time which could have explained the odd happenings in my life. I would have been very open to your argument and suggestions that it may not be me being telepathic, in fact telepathy had never come into the equation at that point. Non of the suggested options explained the circumstances fully and were therefore discounted one by one untill non were left but I still had no idea of what was causing the strange occurrences in my life.

At some point I thought that maybe people can hear my brain and then went in that direction and everything in my past life before 13 years ago suddenly made sense and everything since then has also made sense when telepathy is taken into account. I don’t consider for one moment that you will accept that explanation but when you live it day to day the conclusion becomes inevitable.

On the forum you are talking to like this happened a few days ago and you are trying to test my rational, this has been going on for a couple of decades and I have bee aware that it is telepathy for around 13 to 14 years and have endless unquestionable evidence time and time again that people can hear my thoughts. There is no point in telling me that I am not telepathic as I already conclusively know I am, I just haven’t passed the JREF test.

I could prove categorically that I am telepathic when I get the correct tests together and perhaps not do the JREF test but a University could state that they have scientifically tested me to beyond doubt and that I am indeed telepathic – what would you say then? The JREF test does not define me for what I am, I am still telepathic now and before I enter the MDC, I am not defined as not being telepathic as I have not won the MDC, it is just JREF confirmation that I am telepathic is I do win the MDC.

golfy

 

[chillzero]

Pup put the answer really well, but I would like to address your last sentence. We aren't saying you can't make it. If you would read the posts we are trying to help you identify the flaws in your protocols and experiments so that you can make the MDC claim protocol better.

And, you should really address the question posed by alphaniner - it's an important one.

 

[Czarcasm]

You want a test that will prove that you are telepathic, and any test that does not prove that you are telepathic is, by your definition, defective.
Is this correct?

 

[Rasmus]

Unfortunately I have been aware of being telepathic for around 13 to 14 years and went through this by myself a long time ago.

You went through *what*?

It was suggested it could be things like mobile phone gangs, thumbnail sketches, bugging devices, gypsy mind readers etc and at the time which could have explained the odd happenings in my life. I would have been very open to your argument and suggestions that it may not be me being telepathic, in fact telepathy had never come into the equation at that point. Non of the suggested options explained the circumstances fully and were therefore discounted one by one untill non were left but I still had no idea of what was causing the strange occurrences in my life.

None of us where there at the time. Please, just for a minute ignore what you think you know. Be good sceptic/scientist and just for a moment consider the possibility that you could be mistaken.

If that is too hard for you to do, as I think it is, then at least accept that those who will be testing you might think you are mistaken (or simply insane, or deluded or trying to steal a million dollars from them.)

At some point I thought that maybe people can hear my brain and then went in that direction and everything in my past life before 13 years ago suddenly made sense and everything since then has also made sense when telepathy is taken into account.

Approach this from someone's point of view to whom the mere notion of telepathy doesn't make sense. Look at it from my point of view: I do think that you cannot possibly be telepathic.

What you now need to do is design a protocl that would convince *me*. You need to convince *me* (or the JREF; it doesn't really matter!) You need to convince those who think you are mistaken, or worse: attempting to cheat them out of a million bucks!

Even if we all knew you were telepathic: You need a test that proves it to everybody's satisfaction for a particular instance. It doesn't matter that you are convinced, or that the result fails to contradict you. The result has to convince me and it has to clearly and obviously contradict me.

It doesn't have to show that you might not be wrong. It has to prove that I am wrong and that therefore, you are actually right.

I don’t consider for one moment that you will accept that explanation but when you live it day to day the conclusion becomes inevitable.

Exactly.

But the protocols you have suggested so far won't do that. What you consider a positive result could easily be explained away. It could be explained away even if you were right. And your protocol must not let anyone explain away your success when it's real.

On the forum you are talking to like this happened a few days ago and you are trying to test my rational, this has been going on for a couple of decades and I have bee aware that it is telepathy for around 13 to 14 years and have endless unquestionable evidence time and time again that people can hear my thoughts.

The doesn't have to convince you, it has to convince me. In that regard, your evidence is worthless, even if accurate.

There is no point in telling me that I am not telepathic as I already conclusively know I am, I just haven’t passed the JREF test.

... and you also haven't convinced anyone else that you are telepathic. Think about it: You need to convince the JREF, and that will be much, much harder than convincing any of us.

(In fact, we are not even asking to be convinced yet. We're just asking you to tell us how you would convince us. You don't even habe top be telepathic to pass this hurdle. I could design a working test within 10 minutes. That would - I hope - let everybody accept that if I was telepathic the test would show that.)

I could prove categorically that I am telepathic when I get the correct tests together and perhaps not do the JREF test but a University could state that they have scientifically tested me to beyond doubt and that I am indeed telepathic – what would you say then?

Quite possibly I would suggest that some professors aren't deserving their jobs and pay checks ... but as long as you haven't convinced anyone at a university (someone willing to admit you convinced them at least) those are just empty words.

Yes, you might pass some other test the results of which could possibly convince me. Have you?

No, didn't think so ...

The JREF test does not define me for what I am, I am still telepathic now and before I enter the MDC, I am not defined as not being telepathic as I have not won the MDC, it is just JREF confirmation that I am telepathic is I do win the MDC.

What if you don't win?

Whatever the reasons, what if you don't win?

 

[golfy]

golfy, have you read the entire terms of the Challenge, and the associated FAQ?

Yes I have.

To Czarcasm,

If the test did not prove that I am telepathic then I would question the test. I would of course have this cracked and before approaching the JREF. No point putting forward a test which is not producing the desired results.

golfy

 

[Czarcasm]

If the test did not prove that I am telepathic then I would question the test. I would of course have this cracked and before approaching the JREF. No point putting forward a test which is not producing the desired results.

Is anyone still interested in helping him design a test after reading this?

 

[Loss Leader]

Is anyone still interested in helping him design a test after reading this?

I lost interest around about the time he ignored entirely my post where I pointed out the difference between testing for sound waves and testing for thought waves.

 

[Czarcasm]

Frankly, I can't wait to hear the response when he tells The Powers That Be that he requires a test that proves that he is telepathic, and that if it doesn't, it shows that either the test is defective, or that they are lying.

 

[Rasmus]

Is anyone still interested in helping him design a test after reading this?

Well, I would just hate to see all this energy wasted in the build-up to an epic fail the likes of which the world has never seen before just so the test can be cancelled...

other than that: No.

Moreover, I have little hope that there ever could be a mutually agreed upon protocol, the the question seems purely academic.