Assistance required for telepathy proof

[alfaniner]

Originally Posted by alfaniner
golfy, have you read the entire terms of the Challenge, and the associated FAQ?

Yes I have.

golfy

Thank you for that reply. Perhaps I should have added the query "and did you understand it?" but it satisfies me for now.

I'd suggest you try very hard to understand that statement, because it's not inane, and it's crucial to any kind of dialog about the MDC. Or any use of the scientific method to investigate things in general, for that matter.

People aren't saying the results of the test must prove you're not telepathic. People are saying that the test must have a possible outcome which would prove you're not telepathic.

The very nature of the test is that the claimant state what will constitute a positive and negative result.

...
In other words, you need to design a test that you could pass if you had telepathy, but if you failed, the only logical reason for the failure would be that you didn't have telepathy. No excuses like "I'm really telepathic but the receiver lied" or "the machine wasn't operated correctly" or "it only works under different conditions," or whatever. If you succeed it proves you have telepathy. If you fail, it proves you don't.
...

Not quite correct. It does not offer a blanket disproof of the ability, just proof that it was not possible at that time, under those conditions. The only stipulation is that the claimant show they can do what they claim, not that a negative result is proof of the opposite.

Pedantic, I know. And it leaves room for the claimant to delude themselves into thinking their power is still possible (even with the open pre-pre test, which should show that the "powers are working that day".) You can prove it possible, you can't prove it is not.

 

[golfy]

If I were in a room on my own and the JREF had ten identical opaque plastic pill tubs with the numbers 1 to 10 inside each one – i.e. one number in one tub that were put in there before I had arrived so I could have no way of knowing what was inside them.

These are placed in a box, the box shaken, and if I were to then select one tub at their request, would that be a random selection of a number from 1 to 10?

Czarcasm?

golfy

 

[godless dave]

As a footnote, when the experiment was being set up and the receiver was connected to the GSR in a sound proof booth 40 yards away and the researcher and I could watch his GSR on a monitor in the room that I was in, the researcher said “Look, Dave if flat lining” (Dave was the receiver) – I then said “Wake up Dave, you’re flat lining!”

I don't believe you.

If the researcher saw a subject's EEG flatlining, he would be ethically bound to call 999 immediately. A flat EEG means brain death.

 

[golfy]

If the JREF had ten identical opaque plastic pill tubs with a number between 1 to 10 inside each one – i.e. one number in one tub, number one in the first tub, number two in the second tub etc, that were put in there before I had arrived so I could have no way of knowing what was inside them.

These are placed in a box, the box shaken, and if I were to then select one tub at their request, look inside and read the number, would that be a random selection of a number from 1 to 10?

Czarcasm?

golfy

 

[Czarcasm]

If I were in a room on my own and the JREF had ten identical opaque plastic pill tubs with the numbers 1 to 10 inside each one – i.e. one number in one tub that were put in there before I had arrived so I could have no way of knowing what was inside them.

These are placed in a box, the box shaken, and if I were to then select one tub at their request, would that be a random selection of a number from 1 to 10?

Czarcasm?

golfy

A piece of paper with a number on it? Ping pong balls that are numbered? What do you mean "in a room on my own"?
Never mind. My real question is: What the hell does this have to do with a telepathy test??

 

[godless dave]

What I just wrote was to demonstrate that you cannot simply conclude that there is no form of communication (when you know full well she can hear you verbally) if the GSR does not respond when you say something to her.

It was done to get you guys to think which it seems you can’t do at all.

I have been in situations with people on GSRs many time and just because you say something that they hear does not mean that the GSR will register it. Transfer that to telepathic communication – if they hear it, it does not mean there will be a deflection on the GSR just like there is no deflection on the GSR when they hear you verbally.

To get deflection on the GSR with verbal communication, the right stimulus has to be used to get them stressed such as “I know you wife is having an affair” may cause a response. If it does not respond you would conclude that he did not hear you, I would conclude a number of things. He may not even have a wife, he already knows about the affair and is happy that she is about to leave him for someone else etc.

If you get the stimulus right then there will be a GSR response but finding the right stimulus is very difficult.

So why use a GSR at all? Why not have the recipient just report what word she heard?

 

[Czarcasm]

So why use a GSR at all? Why not have the recipient just report what word she heard?

Because everyone who hears his thoughts lies about it!

 

[golfy]

Czarcasm

I have edited it to make it clearer, please simply answer the question and then we can proceed to the next step of designing a protocol that this forum will accept as a genuine test.

If it is too intellectually challenging for you Czarcasm then all I can conclude is you are not up to ever adding anything constructive this forum, you are just a simple critic of no worth on an intellectual basis. After all we are trying to design a protocol for use in a test designed to determine if telepathy exists, all you do is make excuses and childish critical comments.

Step up to the plate or walk away like you did before when the going got tough.

golfy

 

[Czarcasm]

I have to admit-your conclusions about my mental capacities are as valid as your conclusions about your telepathic ability.

 

[golfy]

Czarcasm, avoiding the issue again, thought you would.

Your words were "Is anyone still interested in helping him design a test after reading this?" I have now concluded that the intellectual colossus that is Czarcasm has nothing constructive of any kind to add to this forum and from now on will be ignored as you are a simple observing critic of no worth intellectually in the goal of achieving confirmation that telepathy can be scientifically proven to exist if the correct protocol and test are designed. I believe that this is simply far beyond your cerebral abilities.

golfy

 

[Coveredinbeeees]

If I were in a room on my own and the JREF had ten identical opaque plastic pill tubs with the numbers 1 to 10 inside each one – i.e. one number in one tub that were put in there before I had arrived so I could have no way of knowing what was inside them.

These are placed in a box, the box shaken, and if I were to then select one tub at their request, would that be a random selection of a number from 1 to 10?

Hello Golfy,

To keep things moving, I'd say that what you describe above would constitute a random selection of a number from one to ten. I'd have to wonder why you'd want to go to all of that trouble rather than simply rolling a ten sided die though.

Also, if I were you, I'd try to avoid making any further personal attacks. They are not likely to help you get your protocol in order and they will, if anything, dissuade many from helping you.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Czarcasm

I have edited it to make it clearer, please simply answer the question and then we can proceed to the next step of designing a protocol that this forum will accept as a genuine test.
...

The JREF has to accept your test proposal, not the forum members. Do you understand that, golfy?

How will you get a media presence and academic support?

And: How exactly - exactly - do you intend to achieve falsifiability in this scenario?

Czarcasm,

The kind of test the JREF will accept is one that shows communication of a paranormal kind as it eliminates all other forms of communication that we currently understand exists today such as mobile phones, verbal communication, sign language etc. The protocol would be such that if communication is shown to be present that it would be of the paranormal kind and would therefore prove that I am telepathic as I would be doing nothing else but thinking to the receiver from a remote location and the receiver would be shown to be reacting to my thoughts by some means such as measurement by GSR. There of course has to be some kind of correlation between me transmitting and the GSR response on the receiver.

If you don’t understand what the MDC is all about, please refrain from posting.

golfy

 

[The Atheist]

1) There will be no test. Period.

2) Golfy will never,ever, EVER be convinced that he does not have telepathy. Ever, in any way, shape, or form.

3) The word "Quantum" will be used

Dang. #3 already happened. However, I got 2 out of 3. Where is my prize?

Bingo!

That wins you two chocolate fish.

PM me the address.

I am quite happy to stop posting and continue with my experiment untill they are honed to the point where proof of thelepathy can be scientifically shown.

Another failed prediction.

Does this thread remind anyone of the Dowsing by Edge thread? Golfy does have a better command of the English language, but I get that same nagging feeling that the information presented is not being assimilated. A serious applicant would have already gathered from the Rules that results requiring interpetation are not permitted, and would not have bothered to suggest such protocools in the first place, much less ignoring numerous posts containing this information.

Well put, and yes I can see this thread still going 120 pages from now, without ever having moved!

If you don’t understand what the MDC is all about, please refrain from posting.

That ain't ironic, that's tungstenic!

I have a protocol which is foolproof which I am sure the JREF would accept, I am telepathic and as long as the JREF will accept a polygraph in the experiment then I have gained nothing from this forum.

Well, your predictive skills have failed again. Your protocol is foolproof, it's foolish.

Let me put this quite simply - nobody, but nobody is going to accept a test involving a polygraph.

The end.

Find another means of proving your skillz, or go away. Feel free to start another thread about why polygraphs are an absurd suggestion for the MDC. Why the hell do you think they are not allowed in the justice system?

I would be better off perfecting my stimulus to the point where it is repeatable and then go from there.

Yay! A sensible suggestion at last!

Here - I'll add to the joy for you. I'd love to see telepathy be proved, in fact I even run a challenge to help would-be telepaths and psychics.

You seem to be quite motivated by money, and expect to gain assistance from someone else by paying them an absurd amount of money, try this for size:

The NZ challenge, unlike Randi's mio in the bank, is actually laid off with bookies, because bookies in some parts of the world will happily give very long odds on people like you being telepathic. I keep it at $2M, but I can change it as I see fit.

You devise a simple protocol to show off your telepathic skill - which does not include any kind of device - and I'll pay your assistant $1,000,000 and pay you another FIVE million. Even better, I'll make it in US dollars. Hell, if you talk to me nicely, I might even consider pounds Sterling.

Instead of writing 5000 word posts which say nothing at all, stop the talking and start designing an acceptable protocol. I intend to make a couple of million at least out of this myself, so sooner rather than later, please.

 

[golfy]

The JREF has to accept your test proposal, not the forum members. Do you understand that, golfy?

How will you get a media presence and academic support?

And: How exactly - exactly - do you intend to achieve falsifiability in this scenario?

Hi Gzuzkryzt,

Yes I do. I already have a protocol which I believe is as tamper and deceit proof for both parties as is required by the JREF, after all it with the JREF that inspects the protocol for suitability and makes alterations to it if they fee it is required and agreeable on both sides.

To gain media presence may be a problem, I have been in contact with another university who seemed willing to be involved in the experiments if I could first demonstrate it to them to a high degree accuracy. That would be the academic covered and presumably it would not be hard to get media attention with the backup of a University Professor stating that I have demonstrated telepathic ability.

As for falsifiability, if the JREF accept the protocol and I win the MDC if I can prove my claim, I don’t see how outsiders opinion affects the winning of the prize as if is a JREF issue.

What do you think Gzuzkryzt?

golfy

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Hi Gzuzkryzt,

Yes I do. I already have a protocol which I believe is as tamper and deceit proof for both parties as is required by the JREF, after all it with the JREF that inspects the protocol for suitability and makes alterations to it if they fee it is required and agreeable on both sides.

To gain media presence may be a problem, I have been in contact with another university who seemed willing to be involved in the experiments if I could first demonstrate it to them to a high degree accuracy. That would be the academic covered and presumably it would not be hard to get media attention with the backup of a University Professor stating that I have demonstrated telepathic ability.

As for falsifiability, if the JREF accept the protocol and I win the MDC if I can prove my claim, I don’t see how outsiders opinion affects the winning of the prize as if is a JREF issue.

What do you think Gzuzkryzt?

golfy

I think you do not - yet - understand what falsifiability means? Have you read the link I provided?

"Seemed", "could", "would" & "would" again. You have a long way to go to even qualify for the MDC. Have you inquired at the JREF if they find your protocol proposal acceptable?

 

[Marcus]

I have a protocol which is foolproof which I am sure the JREF would accept, I am telepathic and as long as the JREF will accept a polygraph in the experiment then I have gained nothing from this forum.

Wrong on all counts. The posters here know from experience that your protocol is not foolproof and is not acceptable, they are trying to help you design one which would work.

 

[Loss Leader]

If it is too intellectually challenging for you Czarcasm then all I can conclude is you are not up to ever adding anything constructive this forum, you are just a simple critic of no worth on an intellectual basis.

When the JREF is nothing but dust centuries from now, people will still speak of golfy's strange obsession with Czarcasm.

 

[Czarcasm]

It would help your cause, golfy, if you could give us your definition of "falsifiability", so that we're all on the same track.

 

[Paul2]

Golfy, I'm sure it would help everyone a lot if you could tell us what you think falsifiability is in general, and specifically how it would apply to a test protocal for your telepathy.

This is a crucial point, I sincerely hope you respond with a direct answer.

 

[Startz]

You don't need to worry about failing

Golfy, let me take your side just a little bit and see if you find that helps.

All you need do is propose a test that someone who is not a telepath cannot succeed at. The results must be apparent without judging.

If you succeed, it does proves you are telepath.

If you fail, it does not prove you are not a telepath, but it also does not prove you are one. (And you don't get the million.)

JREF will probably approve you using a polygraph or other apparatus of your choice, so long as it doesn't provide a way for a non-telepath to succeed at the test.

You don't have to explain to anyone how telepathy will help you at the test, but you might propose a protocol and ask others to explain how a non-telepath might succeed since this is the one thing the test can't allow.

-Dick Startz