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[triforcharity]

I had assumed that the fireproofing would only melt and run into a glassy residue at very elevated temperatures but from my point of view it doesn't actually make all that much difference. Though I would like to hear that those effects only occurred at temperatures of 2,000 degrees C or more.

But you evidently cannot help there.

Untill you help yourself, there is no hope for you.

PS, as Mackey stated correctly, it is not so much temperature, but TIME.

 

[Senenmut]

Nah, only been fighting fires and teaching at the academy 20 years... I understand absolutely nothing of heat transfer...
Ahhh if your conspiracy guys, er I mean "scientists" made up crap then is HAS to be true! Darn, I must have imagined all these industrial buildings I saw with steel structures warped and twisted like pretzels by heat over the years... must have been hidden explosives in all of them!

Good grief!

Pat

in those 20 yrs, have ya ever encountered fireproofing that had "melted into a glassy residue?"

 

[Senenmut]

Untill you help yourself, there is no hope for you.

PS, as Mackey stated correctly, it is not so much temperature, but TIME.

???? when did mackey state that?? soo from that line of thinking, fireproofing could melt at 200F if heated for how many weeks?

 

[njslim]

Ok Bill - at next fire will give you an extinguisher and let you put it out....

 

[Senenmut]

another serious question to the firefighters.
analyze this paragraph..... it is from a bbc documentary.

An engineer at the World Trade Center site correctly predicts that WTC Building 7 is going to collapse. Deputy Chief Peter Hayden of the New York Fire Department will later recall: “We had our special operations people set up surveying instruments to monitor, and see if there was any movement of, [WTC 7]. We were concerned of the possibility of collapse of the building. And we had a discussion with one particular engineer there, and we asked him, if we allowed it to burn could we anticipate a collapse, and if so, how soon?” The engineer apparently predicts correctly that WTC 7 will collapse and also the time it will take before it comes down. As Hayden will continue: “And it turned out that he was pretty much right on the money, that he said, ‘In its current state, you have about five hours.’” Hayden will not reveal the name of this engineer. [BBC, 7/6/2008] WTC 7 will collapse at about 5:20 p.m. (see (5:20 p.m.) September 11, 2001), indicating that the engineer makes his prediction around midday or shortly after. [CNN, 9/12/2001]


is there any way to get ahold of that data that they talk about. the nist did not mention anything like this in their study. it would be interesting what the special ops people saw in their data for an "engineer" to be "right on the money" in predicting the collapse of wtc7. it took nist 7-8 yrs to come up with something.

how can we get this data that they collected? how would it be written down. how would it be stored?

 

[njslim]

6 months after 911 attended seminar with several of the incident commanders at WTC

Heard from them that transit was positioned to view southwest corner of building - by
2:30pm could see that building was starting to creep. Knew then that it would probably
collapse - at 3pm orders were given to clear collapse zone around WTC 7. I was in
my firehouse listening to radio transmissionof neighboring city department on scene, we
were on standby in case needed and backing them up in case of serious fire. Heard the
orders being relayed to clear the area

How did know WTC 7 would collapse - its called experience. Recently took course as
FirE Ground Safety Officer - were taught what signs to look for and anticipate collapse

Also took class several years ago on building collapses - my instructors were some of the
fireground commanders on 911.

In Fire Service techniques are gained by blood - every thing taught has been paid for by
death or injury. Experienced commanders know what to look for and get men out of
way.

 

[ve2vfd]

In Fire Service techniques are gained by blood - every thing taught has been paid for by death or injury. Experienced commanders know what to look for and get men out of way.

Amen brother... amen...

Pat

 

[LashL]

Just as an FYI to those in this thread, I know SnidelyW in real life and have for several years, and can confirm that he is indeed who he says he is:

I am an Operations Fire Captain assigned to a Heavy Rescue in the 5th largest fire Department in North America. I have almost 27 years of firefighting, technical rescue and HUSAR (Heavy Urban Search And Rescue) experience, and have fought thousands of fires, great and small, over my career.

<snipped>

Just thought I'd mention that, since he's a newcomer to this sub-forum and all.

Cheers,
Lash

 

[ve2vfd]

I'd have to say that while reading his post it was pretty obvious (well to anyone sane) that Captn' SnidelyW knows his stuff, and knows it very well.

Captn', I really hope you are not put off by the... "interesting" folks (25-Alpha-1*) here. I'm sure we all have a LOT to learn from you.

Pat

*=MPDS/Clawson

 

[bill smith]

Just as an FYI to those in this thread, I know SnidelyW in real life and have for several years, and can confirm that he is indeed who he says he is:




Just thought I'd mention that, since he's a newcomer to this sub-forum and all.

Cheers,
Lash

Scout's honour ? We will see if the Chief agrees with Shyam Sunder's version of WTC7. That should tell us all we need to know really.

 

[Dave Rogers]

in those 20 yrs, have ya ever encountered fireproofing that had "melted into a glassy residue?"

Just out of interest, would it be distinguishable from any other substance that had melted into a glassy residue?

Dave

 

[sylvan8798]

In the case of WTC7 the fires initially were sparse, small and widely seperated. No evidence shows otherwise- in fact the existing evidence all confirms the small sparse fires. Why could the firemen who were there in their hundreds not have extinguished the small fires using fire extinguishers requisitioned from dozens of surrounding skyscrapers and trucked in from elsewhere?

Two buildings had just been hit by planes and had collapsed. One had sent a lot of debris directly at/into WTC7, which was now damaged and on fire, and didn't look so good. Access was restricted everywhere by debris, fires were burning in numerous other buildings on the site, and there were 343 dead police and firefighters. Um, Bill, would YOUR first priority have been to grab a fire extinguisher and charge into an empty, damaged 47 story building?

Your question shows exactly how clueless you are regarding what was going on at ground zero on 9/11. Disappointingly typical of the truther mindset.

 

[Senenmut]

6 months after 911 attended seminar with several of the incident commanders at WTC

Heard from them that transit was positioned to view southwest corner of building - by
2:30pm could see that building was starting to creep. Knew then that it would probably
collapse - at 3pm orders were given to clear collapse zone around WTC 7. I was in
my firehouse listening to radio transmissionof neighboring city department on scene, we
were on standby in case needed and backing them up in case of serious fire. Heard the
orders being relayed to clear the area

How did know WTC 7 would collapse - its called experience. Recently took course as
FirE Ground Safety Officer - were taught what signs to look for and anticipate collapse

Also took class several years ago on building collapses - my instructors were some of the
fireground commanders on 911.

In Fire Service techniques are gained by blood - every thing taught has been paid for by
death or injury. Experienced commanders know what to look for and get men out of
way.

well, did anyone talk about this equipment they set up around 12pm. the OEM made the call(that the building was going to collapse) and from within the OEM there was this particular engineer....from my previous post:

Deputy Chief Peter Hayden of the New York Fire Department will later recall: “We had our special operations people set up surveying instruments to monitor, and see if there was any movement of, [WTC 7]. We were concerned of the possibility of collapse of the building. And we had a discussion with one particular engineer there, and we asked him, if we allowed it to burn could we anticipate a collapse, and if so, how soon?” The engineer apparently predicts correctly that WTC 7 will collapse and also the time it will take before it comes down. As Hayden will continue: “And it turned out that he was pretty much right on the money, that he said, ‘In its current state, you have about five hours.’” Hayden will not reveal the name of this engineer. [BBC, 7/6/2008] WTC 7 will collapse at about 5:20 p.m.


did any of your teachers discuss this. where can we find this data that they apparently collected. nist sure didnt discuss this data the fireman collected so that an engineer could predict a collapse "right on the money". it would have been a good starting point for their model wouldnt you agree? if one of your teachers had the name rotanz, from the oral history of the firefighters, he was there at the OEM with this "engineer." so if anyone knows rotanz or if ya know his email, lets see if we can find a name to this "engineer".

 

[TruthersLie]

well, did anyone talk about this equipment they set up around 12pm. the OEM made the call(that the building was going to collapse) and from within the OEM there was this particular engineer....from my previous post:

Deputy Chief Peter Hayden of the New York Fire Department will later recall: “We had our special operations people set up surveying instruments to monitor, and see if there was any movement of, [WTC 7]. We were concerned of the possibility of collapse of the building. And we had a discussion with one particular engineer there, and we asked him, if we allowed it to burn could we anticipate a collapse, and if so, how soon?” The engineer apparently predicts correctly that WTC 7 will collapse and also the time it will take before it comes down. As Hayden will continue: “And it turned out that he was pretty much right on the money, that he said, ‘In its current state, you have about five hours.’” Hayden will not reveal the name of this engineer. [BBC, 7/6/2008] WTC 7 will collapse at about 5:20 p.m.


did any of your teachers discuss this. where can we find this data that they apparently collected. nist sure didnt discuss this data the fireman collected so that an engineer could predict a collapse "right on the money". it would have been a good starting point for their model wouldnt you agree? if one of your teachers had the name rotanz, from the oral history of the firefighters, he was there at the OEM with this "engineer." so if anyone knows rotanz or if ya know his email, lets see if we can find a name to this "engineer".

Ummm no as this assessment of the impending collapse provides NO information on what started the collapse initiation.

How would an assessment that the building was probably going to collapse from their readings help nist determine the exact reason behind the collapse?

Trying to conflate these readings and information to the NIST report is at best a faulty comparision if not a complete red herring.

If you want to find out about those readings, feel free to file a FOIA request and find out about them. While those readings would no doubt be a snapshot of the events of the morning, they don't change the basic facts of 9/11.

 

[triforcharity]

???? when did mackey state that?? soo from that line of thinking, fireproofing could melt at 200F if heated for how many weeks?

If you were paying attention, and actually READING what is posted, you would have seen his post.

Fireproofing doesn't, by definition "melt", but more degrade.

Fireproofing is more about how long it will last in a fire. Fireproofing is not designed primarily to save a building, but to save its occupants.

 

[BigAl]

well, did anyone talk about this equipment they set up around 12pm. the OEM made the call(that the building was going to collapse) and from within the OEM there was this particular engineer....from my previous post:

Deputy Chief Peter Hayden of the New York Fire Department will later recall: “We had our special operations people set up surveying instruments to monitor, and see if there was any movement of, [WTC 7]. We were concerned of the possibility of collapse of the building. And we had a discussion with one particular engineer there, and we asked him, if we allowed it to burn could we anticipate a collapse, and if so, how soon?” The engineer apparently predicts correctly that WTC 7 will collapse and also the time it will take before it comes down. As Hayden will continue: “And it turned out that he was pretty much right on the money, that he said, ‘In its current state, you have about five hours.’” Hayden will not reveal the name of this engineer. [BBC, 7/6/2008] WTC 7 will collapse at about 5:20 p.m.


did any of your teachers discuss this. where can we find this data that they apparently collected. nist sure didnt discuss this data the fireman collected so that an engineer could predict a collapse "right on the money". it would have been a good starting point for their model wouldnt you agree? if one of your teachers had the name rotanz, from the oral history of the firefighters, he was there at the OEM with this "engineer." so if anyone knows rotanz or if ya know his email, lets see if we can find a name to this "engineer".

For the sake of this thread, what possible reason do you have to demand what you ask for?

It's been established that trained professionals anticipated the collapse.

Thread closed.

 

[A W Smith]

in those 20 yrs, have ya ever encountered fireproofing that had "melted into a glassy residue?"

Just out of interest, would it be distinguishable from any other substance that had melted into a glassy residue?

Dave

Yeah like maybe.. Glass? I'm told there was a lot of glass used during the construction of the world trade center. It was pretty popular during the sixties and seventies.

 

[NYCEMT86]

How long do you suspect the fire burned in the northeast corner of WTC7 to generate the temperatures that initiated the collapse?

Thanks for your patience.


Considering the fire load, location of the initial fire The easiest way to answer this question is to follow the ASTM E119 time temperature curve. It could take anywhere from 5 to 30 minutes for a fire to reach critical temperatures. Now the column won't collapse immediately when exposed to heat or direct flame, so we need to take in account for the rate of conduction that would cause the failure of column 79.

 

[ve2vfd]

in those 20 yrs, have ya ever encountered fireproofing that had "melted into a glassy residue?"

I've seen many things "melted to a glassy residue" over the years. Was some of it fire-retardant¹? I'd have to ask the Fire Scene Investigators we were assisting as I have never specifically looked for "retardant turned to glassy residue".

I can tell you the most common problem I've seen with fire-retardant on structural steel (other than shoddy application) is it's friableness. It can and does come off in patches exposing steel to heat.


Pat

¹= Please STOP calling it fireproofing... it's nothing more than a retardant meant to allow the occupants more time to exit a burning building. It is NOT magically fireproof.

 

[NYCEMT86]

If you were paying attention, and actually READING what is posted, you would have seen his post.

Fireproofing doesn't, by definition "melt", but more degrade.

Fireproofing is more about how long it will last in a fire. Fireproofing is not designed primarily to save a building, but to save its occupants.

(Bolding mine)

EXACTLY!

Sprinklers, fireproofing, fire doors, smoke detectors, fire extinguishers are referred to as "Life saving measures".