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Oh, BS. The letter says what it says because the US government is bipolar when it comes to illegal immigration.

The letter says what it says because the record keeping which triggers it doesn't indicate that the person in question is an illegal immigrant. As the letter itself indicates, even a simple typo can trigger it. All the letter says is that there's a discrepancy, because that's all the SSA knows. Yes, the government is bipolar about illegal immigration, and that might play a role in why the SSA didn't know more, but that's got nothing to do with Meg Whitman's actions in this case.

If there was a genuine working lie detector I'd feel very good betting that Whitman and the employment agency knew she was illegal.

You can suspect all you want to, and you might even be right. But your claims about what the evidence indicated were wrong.

Everyone knows why people hire illegal workers: they don't have to pay them as much as legal low-skill workers nor offer any benefits. It's just exploitation, plain and simple. It certainly isn't because we have a shortage of legal low-skill workers, nationally the high school graduation rate is just 75% or so.

$23/hour for low-skill light work? Yeah, somehow I don't see that as terrible exploitation. Nor is this a case of paying her under the table to avoid taxes (which is why the 2003 letter got sent in the first place).
 
The letter says what it says because the record keeping which triggers it doesn't indicate that the person in question is an illegal immigrant. As the letter itself indicates, even a simple typo can trigger it. All the letter says is that there's a discrepancy, because that's all the SSA knows. Yes, the government is bipolar about illegal immigration, and that might play a role in why the SSA didn't know more, but that's got nothing to do with Meg Whitman's actions in this case.



You can suspect all you want to, and you might even be right. But your claims about what the evidence indicated were wrong.
The evidence indicates tey ignored discrepancies with the SS#. This should have arpoused suspicion, and Whitman chose instead to look the other way.

$23/hour for low-skill light work? Yeah, somehow I don't see that as terrible exploitation. Nor is this a case of paying her under the table to avoid taxes (which is why the 2003 letter got sent in the first place).
Heh, I bet that's $15/hr to the employment agency, and $8/hr to the maid.
 
The evidence indicates tey ignored discrepancies with the SS#. This should have arpoused suspicion, and Whitman chose instead to look the other way.

That's a pretty big walkback from your previous position. Additionally, that's STILL not what the evidence indicates. The evidence indicates Mr. Whitman saw the letter, it doesn't indicate Meg ever knew anything about it. And while Mr. Whitman may have handled it the wrong way, he didn't ignore it. As I already pointed out to you, the letter lists name change as a cause for such record discrepancies, and what's on the 2nd page? A name change. It's entirely possible he thought that was the source of the error.

What you're really arguing is that the Whitmans should have suspected that an hispanic employee who presented them with a social security card and a driver's license was really an illegal immigrant because... she was hispanic. Admit it, Wildcat: you blame them for not engaging in racial profiling.

Heh, I bet that's $15/hr to the employment agency, and $8/hr to the maid.

Sure, Wildcat. Invent whatever facts you want to in order to make yourself feel comfortable.
 
The evidence indicates tey ignored discrepancies with the SS#.

No, the record does not indicate that. As already pointed out to you (why do you stubbornly refuse to listen to what you've been told), the letter (a link to it was provided to you) gave several possible reasons for whatever was preventing Social Security from being able to, as the letter stated, "put these earnings on the employee's Social Security record". Here the reasons the letter stated:

- Record transcription or typographical errors
- Incomplete or blank name reported
- Incomplete or blank SSN reported
- Name changes

It doesn't say the SSN might be wrong … just incomplete or blank. And gives 3 other reasons that have nothing to do with the SSN. In fact, the letter states immediately below that list of reasons that "This letter does not imply that you or your employee intentionally provided incorrect information about the employee's name or SSN." And then it warns the employer not to take any adverse action against the employee and that doing so "may violate state or federal law and be subject to legal consequences". And then the letter goes even further and says "this letter makes no statement about your employee's immigration status." It seems to be going out of it's way to say the SSN and employees legal status is probably fine.

Then below that it requests information. Whitman's husband may have filled out the form. It requires no signature but the ink and block lettering in the answers might match the note Allred says Mr Whitman scribbled at the bottom of the form saying "Nicky Please check this Thanks". Nicky being the housekeeper.

And since the maid apparently is the one who had this letter in her possession, Mr Whitman obviously followed up that scribble by giving the letter and form to her to check (i.e., take care of). And that appears to have been a permissable action. The instructions on the form only says to "ask the employee to give you the name and Social Security number exactly as it appears on the employee's Social Security card. It even says that "while the employee must furnish the SSN to you, the employee is not required to show you the Social Security card." And it says that if the employee's SS card does not show the correct name or SSN, "have the employee contact any Social Security office." So even if there was a problem, the instructions were to let the employee "check" it. It clearly doesn't require that the form be sent back by the employer or the employer contact the office. The Whitman did absolutely nothing wrong.

And mind you, this was a long term employee. They'd seen her driver's license and SS card, which, by the way, look quite legal. She'd been employed through an agency … not off the street or by word of mouth … so they reasonably had the expectation that she was legal. They clearly had concerns about hiring someone who was illegal. In fact, why would they pay $23/hour for someone they knew was illegal (you claim), when they could go out and hire one for $10/hour? If you want to know what I think, I think you are just on a witch hunt for ANY excuse to hurt Whitman's campaign and are not interested in the facts, Wildcat.

Heh, I bet that's $15/hr to the employment agency, and $8/hr to the maid.

Maybe, maybe not. You are again just speculating. Most agencies like this take 30-50% off the top. Which means she probably was making more than the $8 you claim. And note that in addition to the $23/hour, the Whitman's also paid all payroll taxes including the maid's portion.

Here's a website that indicates the hourly wages for maids and housekeepers by various employers and industries.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Maid_or_Housekeeping_Cleaner/Hourly_Rate

Looks to me like Whitman's maid was probably making fair wages. And if the amount of wages are YOUR indication of people using illegals and taken advantage of them, then ALL those employers and job categories should have received your ire by now. Have they? :D
 
That's a pretty big walkback from your previous position. Additionally, that's STILL not what the evidence indicates. The evidence indicates Mr. Whitman saw the letter, it doesn't indicate Meg ever knew anything about it. And while Mr. Whitman may have handled it the wrong way, he didn't ignore it. As I already pointed out to you, the letter lists name change as a cause for such record discrepancies, and what's on the 2nd page? A name change. It's entirely possible he thought that was the source of the error.

What you're really arguing is that the Whitmans should have suspected that an hispanic employee who presented them with a social security card and a driver's license was really an illegal immigrant because... she was hispanic. Admit it, Wildcat: you blame them for not engaging in racial profiling.
Riiiiigggghhht... he didn't ignore it, he just "handled it the wrong way".

Sure, Wildcat. Invent whatever facts you want to in order to make yourself feel comfortable.
The letter shows 2002 earnings of $17,940. Assuming 40 hours per week, 52 weeks a year, that comes to... $8.63/hr. Presumably the employment agency took the rest, though I still have no idea where you got the $23/hr from. At any rate, we know the maid wasn't making $23/hr, not even close.
 
The letter shows 2002 earnings of $17,940. Assuming 40 hours per week

Why would you assume 40 hours per week? It wasn't. It was 15 hours per week.

You keep making assumptions about what's going on that just aren't true.

52 weeks a year, that comes to... $8.63/hr.

Try again. $17940/52 = $345 per week. At 15 hours per week, that's... $23 per hour.

Presumably the employment agency took the rest

You can presume all you want to, you're wrong.

though I still have no idea where you got the $23/hr from.

From news stories. That number has been reported all over the place, including here, which also mentions the 15 hours per week. There's more than a little bit of irony here, Wildcat, considering your first response to me.

At any rate, we know the maid wasn't making $23/hr, not even close.

No, Wildcat. We know that you jumped to conclusions based on zero evidence. Again.
 
"how then will we clean our houses, care for our children, and harvest our crops", you ask?

through legal temporary worker visas and legal house-cleaning, childcare agencies.
To start, stop paying millions of citizens not to work while allowing in millions and millions and millions of illegals to work.
 
To start, stop paying millions of citizens not to work while allowing in millions and millions and millions of illegals to work.

And then send a large number of those people right across the border into mexico which makes things EVEN WORSE.
 
And then send a large number of those people right across the border into mexico which makes things EVEN WORSE.


that....is not our responsibility. nor our problem.

we passed NAFTA, which was supposed to help Mexico and its workers. if it has not, what more u want?

should we allow Mexicans citizens to go on American Welfare?
 
Why would you assume 40 hours per week? It wasn't. It was 15 hours per week.

You keep making assumptions about what's going on that just aren't true.



Try again. $17940/52 = $345 per week. At 15 hours per week, that's... $23 per hour.



You can presume all you want to, you're wrong.



From news stories. That number has been reported all over the place, including here, which also mentions the 15 hours per week. There's more than a little bit of irony here, Wildcat, considering your first response to me.



No, Wildcat. We know that you jumped to conclusions based on zero evidence. Again.
Pardon me for not seeing that which wasn't linked to in this thread.

I thought she was a live-in, because some reports said she was a nanny.

Yeah, for $23 she could have hired a legal worker... a college student would kill for such a good paying part-time job.

So... I will cut Whitman some slack here, though the whole story smells fishy she may well have thought Diaz was legal.
 
And then send a large number of those people right across the border into mexico which makes things EVEN WORSE.
I'd be fine with an amnesty for those who are alrready here, but only if laws and regulations are put in place to prevent hiring of illegal workers in the future. The US should be putting its low-skilled people to work before we start importing them from elsewhere.
 
Smells fishy how, exactly?

Well, I'm not sure what Wildcat meant, but the whole thing IS fishy, very fishy. Allred, who's got connections to Brown and regularly acts as a liberal activist, brings a complaint from a "client" which has basically no legal legs to stand on but might have political impact, on the eve of an election. And she's pulled this stunt before, too. Yup, it stinks.
 
How is allred not being charged with aiding and abetting a criminal in the commission of a crime?
 
Isn't it illegal in America to discriminate against someone when hiring, because you suspect they might be an illegal immigrant?

I mean, even if the Whitmans did think she might be illegal, weren't they prohibited by law from acting against her on that basis?

ETA: It seems like WildCat wants the Whitmans to put two and two together, but in fact it would have been a crime for them to do so.
 
So far there appears to be no significant evidence that Meg Whitman knew that Nicky Diaz was an illegal immigrant when she hired Diaz, no significant evidence that she became aware of that prior to Diaz informing her of that in 2009, and no significant evidence that Whitman underpaid or mistreated Diaz. Diaz and Allred have made claims about these things, but so far the case seems to be based mainly on speculation: arguments along the lines that it could have been and it seems likely and it seems reasonable... I'm willing to be convinced that Whitman knowingly employed an illegal immigrant, but in order to be convinced I need to see some substantial evidence.

Likewise, so far there appears to be no significant evidence that Jerry Brown was part of or connected to Allred's and Diaz's actions in making this public. Whitman has claimed he was, and others (including posters in this thread) have echoed those claims, but so far the case seems to be based entirely on speculation: arguments along the line that he could have been and that it seems likely and that it seems reasonable... I'm willing to be convinced that Brown was complicit in this attack on Whitman, but in order to be convinced I need to see some substantial evidence.

It's sad that people who dislike Whitman are willing to accept a purely notional case for proving her guilt in a matter where actual evidence seems lacking, and that people who dislike Brown are willing to accept a purely notional case for proving his guilt in a matter where actual evidence seems lacking.

Hey! Wouldn't it be great if some group devoted to promoting skeptical thinking, possibly one with a website and a discussion forum, were to add a Politics section to their forum? That would give people an opportunity to apply the same kind of thinking we'd like used in discussions of the paranormal to discussions of politics.
 

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