Arizona Republicans Propose Bill That Would Prevent Atheists From Graduating

[Jrrarglblarg]

I had to sign a similar oath to work for the state of Georgia (as a TA at college, if you can believe it). It was part of a whole bunch of paperwork. I told the lady I wouldn't sign it and she said to just skip it. So, it went in unsigned. Never caused a problem.

Of course, I actually did end up taking the very same oath when I was sworn in to the Georgia Bar. That one I repeated, hand raised, word for word.

You said "I, state your name, do solemnly swear" ??

 

[This is The End]

In fact, it takes a peculiar kind of atheist to be unable to say that oath.

I find it odd that you think not wanting to lie is peculiar.

We shouldn't be in the business of encouraging lies, even seemingly harmless ones like this

Exactly.

 

[Brainster]

On the plus side, these idiots couldn't have picked a more politically suicidal time to bring this up

Why? Because atheism and Democrats are on the rise in Arizona?

 

[Ziggurat]

I disagree. If the words ended with "And there is no god", by your logic no theist should object to saying the oath because they "know" that last phrase to be a lie. Yet you absolutely know that is not the case, i.e., that theists would totally object to having to say that.

First off, some theists believe that saying there is no god will offend god, but obviously the void won't object to a statement that there is a god. So this isn't really a parallel. Second, I didn't say *no* atheist should or would object, only that *some* may not. It is possible that *some* theists would not object to your version, but that doesn't even matter. I never said that atheists shouldn't object to this legislation, or to saying the oath. The oath offends, without any commensurate benefit, and on that grounds alone it is bad legislation. But once again, that is not the same thing as preventing atheists as a category from graduating. It doesn't do that.

 

[Ziggurat]

I find it odd that you think not wanting to lie is peculiar.

You misunderstand me. Not wanting to do something is different than being unable to do that thing. When I said "unable", I meant it quite literally, and not as a figurative expression for not wanting to.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Why? Because atheism and Democrats are on the rise in Arizona?

Because people are going to be asking why in the hell the fire department budgets came up short. Wasting public money is not held as desirable a thing to do as in some other places

I gather from the rolleyes that you know nothing of AZ politics. Democrat and Republican mean nothing there. If you look at the parties of say just the governors over the years you'll see the letter flip back and forth.

Also, issues are not party specific, you'll get education republicans, hardcore environmentalist republicans, self defense democrats and other weird combos. For the most part these are single issue voters, and often, single issue campaigns, party be damned

And whether or not there are large numbers of atheists in AZ is far less important than the absolute disgust there is at the idea of mixing church and state, especially at the state level. There are a few small areas where there are mormon laws and mexican catholic laws, but even those are crumbling

The only bit where you really feel it is in the Temperance movement, where the religious right and the religious left come together in a nearly unstoppable alliance to pass anti-alcohol and anti-responsibility laws, but that's no different than any other state

 

[SezMe]

I'd object to the creepy uber-patrioticness of it more than the religiosity.

There's that but even worse, what if you're a native of Japan. Or Greece. Or actually a citizen of any other country. Should you be required to take the oath?

Just more dumb ******* by the 'Baggers.

 

[SezMe]

I don't know much of these lawmakers, they may be Calzonies or snowbird or eastern transplants, or a bit less likely, life long city dwellers, but this is NOT the state for this sort of BS

Really? Home to "pink panties" Joe. Governed by Brewer. Represented in D.C. by the inimitable Jeff Flake.

Really?

 

[pipelineaudio]

Really? Home to "pink panties" Joe. Governed by Brewer. Represented in D.C. by the inimitable Jeff Flake.

Really?

Yes really

Does Sheriff Joe mandate religion?

And so what about Brewer? It was also governed by Napalitano and represented by Deconcini

So what?

Mixing church and state is not a popular thing in AZ. Blowing money on crap when it could have been spent preventing the death of heroes is even less so

 

[jj]

Every non-religious person who takes this oath is guilty of perjury.

This is, therefore, a completely illegal attempt to discriminate against atheists. It is a crime, the proposal of the bill constitutes demands discrimination by denying people of a certain creed the right to graduate high school without committing a felony, and the people proposing it should be held responsible.

It is profoundly un-American, and is nothing more or less than the start of the Taliban approach.

 

[Reeco]

As an atheist, it wouldn't bother me saying those words. I'd just say them, forget them, graduate and go and celebrate.

What is weird is that there are people who get paid to come up with things like this. Why should the graduates have to say anything at all?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Requiring people to promise they accept an irrelevant obligation, and particularly that they accept it freely, is idiotic and more than a little creepy.

If I were put in this position, I hope I'd have the nerve to preface it with "In order to complete my graduation from this school I am required to say..."

 

[Brainster]

Because people are going to be asking why in the hell the fire department budgets came up short. Wasting public money is not held as desirable a thing to do as in some other places

What money was spent on this bill that could have been used for fire department budgets?

I gather from the rolleyes that you know nothing of AZ politics. Democrat and Republican mean nothing there. If you look at the parties of say just the governors over the years you'll see the letter flip back and forth.

Errr, I live in Phoenix, so I do know something of AZ politics. And the only reason we've had Democrat governors lately (two in the last 30 or so years) is when the Republicans have screwed up royally. Ev Mecham got his sorry ass impeached giving us Rose Mofford, and Jane Hull was blamed (rightly) for the alt-fuels fiasco bequeathing us (barely) Napolitano.

Also, issues are not party specific, you'll get education republicans, hardcore environmentalist republicans, self defense democrats and other weird combos. For the most part these are single issue voters, and often, single issue campaigns, party be damned

And whether or not there are large numbers of atheists in AZ is far less important than the absolute disgust there is at the idea of mixing church and state, especially at the state level. There are a few small areas where there are mormon laws and mexican catholic laws, but even those are crumbling

Sorry, but I just don't see or hear any disgust with this law. It's pretty much useless crap, but again it has nothing, zero, nada, zilch to do with fire department funding.

 

[pipelineaudio]

ANY money wasted on this bill is money that could have gone to the fire departments. That's the way they're going to see it

 

[Ladewig]

Requiring people to promise they accept an irrelevant obligation, and particularly that they accept it freely, is idiotic and more than a little creepy.

If I were put in this position, I hope I'd have the nerve to preface it with "In order to complete my graduation from this school I am required to say..."

I like to think I wouldn't say it at all, but my advice to students who may someday find themselves in this position, is to use air quotes on "freely" and "God." Maybe even "support," "solemnly swear," "support," "defend," and "true faith." That will annoy the administrators more than if you refuse to say it. Or one could say it in a Donald Duck voice.

 

[TragicMonkey]

The very concept of loyalty oaths is absurd. Do they really think that someone might be wicked enough to commit treason but draw the line at breaking a promise? "Oh, I just remembered, Mr Terrorist. I was totally going to give you this suitcase full of plutonium in exchange for a hundred million dollars but then I recalled I promised not to. So even though I killed all those guards and stole plutonium and flew here to your hideout, I'm going to have to decline after all."

 

[Ray Brady]

Every non-religious person who takes this oath is guilty of perjury.

Every person who takes the oath is lying, as they know they are not taking it freely.

If you want to make a loyalty oath meaningful, it has to be entirely voluntary and free of consequences, either positive or negative.

While we're on the subject, the thing that bothers me most about the Pledge of Allegiance is not the "Under God" reference, but the fact that you're expected to swear loyalty to an inanimate object. I'll gladly pledge my loyalty to the country I live in, but not to a flag. That smacks of idolatry to me.

 

[Piscivore]

While we're on the subject, the thing that bothers me most about the Pledge of Allegiance is not the "Under God" reference, but the fact that you're expected to swear loyalty to an inanimate object. I'll gladly pledge my loyalty to the country I live in, but not to a flag. That smacks of idolatry to me.

I won't do that either. I'm not going to follow along like some stupid, drooling dog behind a government or society simply because I was born into it. I can't control what they choose to do, and many many times they choose to act in ways that violate my personal conception of morality and ethics, and/or reasonand evidence. I don't have any reason I've found to think that any other group is any different, either.

I stopped saying the pledge entirely.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I can't commit to a brand of shampoo much less a whole country. That's what America is all about: keeping your options open in case something better comes along. That's why I, like many patriots, am in like with my country.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Did they specify which god or gods.


Sent from my cellthingy via Hedwig.