Arguments, The Bible, and Smart Apologists

[Leumas]

I don't know. Maybe because I have never had it presented to me that way.
I would have to think about it a little more.

good.... I hope you do

 

[Leumas]

I don't know. Maybe because I have never had it presented to me that way.
I would have to think about it a little more.

Ethnikos,

Here are some more verses to ponder about.

1 Corinthians

{3:18} Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

{3:19} For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

{3:20} And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

{3:21} Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
{3:22} Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
{3:23} And ye are Christ’s; and Christ [is] God’s.​

 

[Ethnikos]

Ethnikos,
Here are some more verses to ponder about.

I am over 55 and was born into a Christian church going family.
When I was studying Judaism I got to a point that I realized it was mostly tradition which you pick up, like how I picked up my traditions.
You, can't just pick up a book called NT and know what Christianity is, just like I can't pick up a book called OT and know what Judaism is.
You have no idea what you are talking about and please take that in a nice way.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

Wow Ethnikos... That is so much fail... I suggest you read Elijah's story again.
I don't think there is a single fact you got right.

 

[Leumas]

I am over 55 and was born into a Christian church going family.
When I was studying Judaism I got to a point that I realized it was mostly tradition which you pick up, like how I picked up my traditions.
You, can't just pick up a book called NT and know what Christianity is, just like I can't pick up a book called OT and know what Judaism is.You have no idea what you are talking about and please take that in a nice way.

WOW.... what a cop out....

Ethnikos.... I truly applogize for shaking your BOX....



This is so pathetically illogical on so many levels. It is tragic. Well I guess logic is not one of your strong traits....and PLEASE take that in a nice way.

 

[westprog]

includes non-Canon works like Gospel of Thomas and Gospel of Thomas,

Thomas was of course called the twin.

 

[Ethnikos]

Wow Ethnikos... That is so much fail... I suggest you read Elijah's story again.
I don't think there is a single fact you got right.

I suggest everyone read it and keep in mind what I wrote about it.
You may or may not get a wake-up as to the nature of these so-called gods and which ones are truly evil.
As to the quoted comment, Go ahead and point out any incorrect facts.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

I really don't understand the strength of the ontological argument, and it may be that I don't understand the argument itself. Somebody set me straight if I've got this wrong. As far as I can tell, the OA is "We can conceive of a supreme being, therefore one exists". I can conceive a snake the size of Jupiter with three heads and wings that shoots acid out its anus. Does that mean such a thing exists? And if it didn't before, does it now, simply because I thought of it? (and if I can create things just by thinking about them, doesn't that make me a god?)

 

[Ethnikos]

WOW.... what a cop out....

Ethnikos.... I truly applogize for shaking your BOX....



This is so pathetically illogical on so many levels. It is tragic. Well I guess logic is not one of your strong traits....and PLEASE take that in a nice way.

Here is logic:
criticise your own religion and not one you do not know and can not possibly understand how much you are wasting your time.
But of course you are partisan and will spin your wheels criticizing a religion not your own.
Now who is being logical?

 

[elipse]

I was Christian for 19 years. Am I allowed to criticize it? Or will you just tell me that my brand of Christianity isnt' the same as yours, so I don't understand Christianity?

Address the arguments presented please. It looks like you can't when you resort to saying "you don't know what you're talking about because you don't believe."

 

[Leumas]

I really don't understand the strength of the ontological argument, and it may be that I don't understand the argument itself. Somebody set me straight if I've got this wrong. As far as I can tell, the OA is "We can conceive of a supreme being, therefore one exists". I can conceive a snake the size of Jupiter with three heads and wings that shoots acid out its anus. Does that mean such a thing exists? And if it didn't before, does it now, simply because I thought of it? (and if I can create things just by thinking about them, doesn't that make me a god?)

You got it EXACTLY right....you managed to understand it and debunk it all at the same time...it is an utterly faulty premise and STUPID....just because some so called "philosophers" proposed it does not mean anything.

Even the most hindered "philosopher" Thomas Aquinas refuted the OT.

you are right...

 

[Lord Emsworth]

I really don't understand the strength of the ontological argument,

It is not a strong argument. In fact, it is incredibly weak as an argument. (It fares better as a defining criterion for "God" though) But it is still better, much better than any cosmological argument around.

and it may be that I don't understand the argument itself. Somebody set me straight if I've got this wrong. As far as I can tell, the OA is "We can conceive of a supreme being, therefore one exists". I can conceive a snake the size of Jupiter with three heads and wings that shoots acid out its anus. Does that mean such a thing exists? And if it didn't before, does it now, simply because I thought of it? (and if I can create things just by thinking about them, doesn't that make me a god?)

Not quite. In Anselm's original there is somewhere something about 'existing in reality' > 'existing in the mind'. Your huge snake with three heads etc exists just in your mind. Whereas normal one-headed snakes do indeed exist in reality. Draw your conclusion. (Now, if you apply this to Gods, then it turns out that the fancyful, omnimax, supernatural WOW-Gods that exist just in the minds of the believers, may need to be seriously watered down to conform to reality.)

 

[Leumas]

Here is logic:
criticise your own religion and not one you do not know and can not possibly understand how much you are wasting your time.
But of course you are partisan and will spin your wheels criticizing a religion not your own.

Ethnikos….tsk…tsk…. .... do you know how many logical fallacies you have just committed?

HOW do you know that Christianity is not my birth religion? Even if it is not….HOW do you know that I was not raised in …let’s say….a catholic boarding school with Nuns and sisters and mother superior and mass EVERY MORNING and EVENING…not just on Sundays? and Religious studies for 10 years?

But even if I was raised in another religion…what you are saying is that there is no way for a person to understand Christianity unless he is INCULCATED and BRAIN WASHED and INDOCTRINATED in it from birth and throughout his/her life span.

So what you are saying is that NO ONE but a fully brain washed Christian can or has the RIGHT to study or analyze or critique or debunk Christian scriptures (despite two thirds of it being Jewish).

What you said is BIGOTED….BENIGHTED…and is to be BEMOANED for how pathetically illogical and RACIST it is.

Again…. I apologize PROFUSELY for shaking your BOXED IN HEAD so much so as to drive you to such a PAINFUL COGNITIVE DISSONANCE reaction.

I am sorry man…. I really did not realize that you would have such a CD reaction.

I am sorry….some people cannot handle the TRUTH….so please close the lid again, the dark is much less bewildering inside your box.

Now who is being logical?

Sorry mate.

 

[Ethnikos]

I was Christian for 19 years. Am I allowed to criticize it? Or will you just tell me that my brand of Christianity isnt' the same as yours, so I don't understand Christianity?

Address the arguments presented please. It looks like you can't when you resort to saying "you don't know what you're talking about because you don't believe."

I could address the argument if it was an argument.
The thread is about debunking religion.
I am not going to sit here and argue something that is not any sort of argument to anyone who is a long time Christian.
My point is that Leumas does not recognise how it would be dismissed as completely frivolous, and not even on point as being a criticism.
I believe if he wants to be effective in debunking a religion, then he should debunk the one he does understand.
I am also giving my opinion that he will not say anything negative about his own religion (not Christianity), ever.
Like I said, I was discussing what might be effective for arguing the wrongness of a bunch of religion.
I am sick of hypocrisy even when it masquerades as atheism.

 

[Leumas]

I could address the argument if it was an argument.
The thread is about debunking religion.
I am not going to sit here and argue something that is not any sort of argument to anyone who is a long time Christian.
My point is that Leumas does not recognise how it would be dismissed as completely frivolous, and not even on point as being a criticism.
I believe if he wants to be effective in debunking a religion, then he should debunk the one he does understand.
I am also giving my opinion that he will not say anything negative about his own religion (not Christianity), ever.
Like I said, I was discussing what might be effective for arguing the wrongness of a bunch of religion.
I am sick of hypocrisy even when it masquerades as atheism.

Ethnikos.....apparently the SHOCK of the Cognitive Dissonance you have suffered has caused you to forget to take whatever medication you are on to keep you sane.

Please....go to your medicine cabinet and TAKE YOUR MEDICINES..... I hope you can manage to find your bathroom and remember how to open the childproof bottles BEFORE your brain tumbles into the ominous and benighted abyss of fundamentalist bigotry and illogic beyond any hope of return.

I feel exceedingly remorseful to have unwittingly driven you off the precipice of sanity. I did suspect that you were teetering on the brink of coherence.....I have been very remiss in debating with you...but I did not realize the full extent of how precarious your hold on reality must have been.

Please... Please... take a double dose of whatever enabled any link between your sanity and reality.

Please DO NOT proceed beyond this point unless you have regained some semblance of lucidity
​

When you do regain some hold on reality as untenable as it was previously, please answer the following questions…..only to satisfy my curiosity not to resume any debate that you are obviously not mature enough to hold.


Do not press the button below unless you can handle logic with maturity and sanity

You stated that I would "not say anything negative about my religion"….you in a previous thread assumed I was Jewish…. You have also said in parenthesis that my religion is not Christianity.

Can you the mouse on my Name…. then select “Find more posts by” and go back and read what religions I have said “negative things” about…..

You will find that I have so far said "negative things" about Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Mormonism.

If I am Jewish as you have assumed….then how is your statement not STUPID?

If your statement is true then that implies that I am not Jewish, Christian, Moslim or Mormon……so what do you NOW ASSUME I am?

If as you illogically conclude that only a born Christian can argue about Christianity……then pray tell…..as a Christian yourself…..HOW are YOU qualified to argue the arguments you have made in other threads that YHWH is an EVIL ANGEL and the whole of Judaism is a religion founded by a FALLEN ANGEL? Are you qualified to discuss anything about Judaism despite not being born Jewish?

You claim there was no argument….you are right…there was NO ARGUMENT…. there was a DEBATE…..

I responded to the statement

I disagree. I think there's plenty in the Bible, especially in Paul's writings in Corinthians, Ephesians, and Galatians, for the critically-minded. And teachings during the Christian journeys also made it clear that questioning and study was to be strongly encouraged.

I asserted that Paul holds that wisdom and prudence and knowledge are NOT DESIRABLE for a FAITHFUL Christian……I quoted verses after verses to bolster my point.

You negated my assertion with opinion and hand waving and taking partial verses out of context in this post and this one and this one.


I retorted to each post and finally I said

I do not see how anyone can fail to understand by all this and the OTHER verses in the passages I quoted that Paul considers wisdom a FOOL’S QUEST.

You came back and said

I don't know. Maybe because I have never had it presented to me that way.
I would have to think about it a little more.

And you NEVER came back and retorted…which makes your statement
QUOTE=Ethnikos;7466539]I could address the argument if it was an argument.
The thread is about debunking religion.
I am not going to sit here and argue something that is not any sort of argument to anyone who is a long time Christian.[/QUOTE]


A PURE LIE or UTTER LOSS of hold on reality……..you YOURSELF SAID….

I don't know. Maybe because I have never had it presented to me that way.
I would have to think about it a little more.

But I am sorry to conclude that “think about it a little” has DRIVEN YOU to finally reveal YOUR TRUE COLORS……for the BIGOTED ANTI-SEMITE you are.

Oh yes… I do call you anti-Semite…. Because you critique and criticize Judaism and call YHWH an evil angel and not the TRUE GOD despite not being Jewish nor wanting to criticize your religion and you want to deny me as a PRESUMED (by you) Jew the right to critique your religion on the grounds that I cannot possibly understand christianity.

You even call me a "hypocrite" and claim that I am “masquerading” as an atheist….

I am not going to sit here and argue something [….] to anyone who is a long time Christian.I am sick of hypocrisy even when it masquerades as atheism.

By your LIMITED understanding of reality…no one can be a true atheist….and since you have assumed I am Jewish then I must be debunking Christianity only out of “partisanship” presumably to Judaism.

But of course you are partisan and will spin your wheels criticizing a religion not your own.

Have you forgotten that Christianity is so utterly ILLEGITIMATE without the USURPED endorsements from the OT? Have you forgotten that Jesus was Jewish, and so were the apostles and Paul and all the supposed writers of the NT?

If I am Jewish as you have decided then I would have the FULL right to criticize a Jewish heresy (actually blasphemy) that claims legitimacy by usurping the OT and would vanish in a puff of logic if the OT is debunked. If I criticize Paul, I would be doing so as a Jew criticizing another Jew....and you are just the "wild branch" trying to hang on the coattails of Judaism by being "grafted to the good tree trunk". You are just a "DOG" trying to snout a few "crumbs that have fallen of the tables of the masters."

Romans 11:

16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.​

Mathew 15:

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” 25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said. 26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” 27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”​

 

[Ethnikos]

Ethnikos.....apparently the SHOCK of the Cognitive Dissonance you have suffered has caused you to

This post gives me hope for this forum that it has been here this long.
I really don't see your point other than your claim to superiority by right of birth. So that is why you will never criticize that religion which grants you your superiority.
I have no fear of being proven wrong because the only way I could be is for you to criticize your birth religion, which is my point, it will never happen.
Being born into a religion does not make you an expert in a religion you rationalize as being merely an offshoot of your own. That is delusional, in my opinion, to think that you are.

 

[Leumas]

This post gives me hope for this forum that it has been here this long.
I really don't see your point other than your claim to superiority by right of birth. So that is why you will never criticize that religion which grants you your superiority.
I have no fear of being proven wrong because the only way I could be is for you to criticize your birth religion, which is my point, it will never happen.
Being born into a religion does not make you an expert in a religion you rationalize as being merely an offshoot of your own. That is delusional, in my opinion, to think that you are.

 

[Leumas]

This post gives me hope for this forum that it has been here this long.
I really don't see your point other than your claim to superiority by right of birth. So that is why you will never criticize that religion which grants you your superiority.
I have no fear of being proven wrong because the only way I could be is for you to criticize your birth religion, which is my point, it will never happen.
Being born into a religion does not make you an expert in a religion you rationalize as being merely an offshoot of your own. That is delusional, in my opinion, to think that you are.

Have a look at the post below ....but since you are incapable of processing reality correctly you are STILL going to repeat the above false claim....but I did what I could.... the rest is up to you.

I definitely would put Judaism, Christianity and Islam on the "harmful destructive cult" side.

On the "harmless ideology that is mostly good" side of the DICHOTOMY…. I don't know of any religion that fits that bill.....but DEFINITELY not any religion that stems from the -

Infanticidal, Megalomaniacal, Homicidal, Racist, LYING, RAPING, INCESTUAL, Jealous, Lustful, Gluttonous, Greedy, Slothful, Envious, Vain, Pompous, Wrathful, Vengeful, Deceitful, Egotistical, Malevolent, Benighted MORON called YHWH (a.k.a Jesus, a.k.a. Allah).​

ETA: all the above traits can be proven through the Bible itself.

The above post PROVES you wrong....because YOU said....

I have no fear of being proven wrong because the only way I could be is for you to criticize your birth religion, which is my point, it will never happen.

 

[Ethnikos]

Have a look at the post below ....but since you are incapable of processing reality correctly you are STILL going to repeat the above false claim....but I did what I could.... the rest is up to you.
The above post PROVES you wrong....because YOU said....

OK.
Interesting you posted that yesterday and I missed it (on another thread?).
So I am a day behind "reality". Well a bold step in the right direction.
I don't have anything against being proven wrong.
This is what this forum is best at.

 

[pthena]

revelatory religion that contains a text that is purported to be written/inspired by their deity. In other words, pretty much all the major religions.

Written by seems easily dismissed.

For example: The Old Testament doesn't claim that. There were supposedly stone tablets written by "god" but they immediately got broken, so those don't exist to be argued about.

The New Testament doesn't make the claim either. The star character, one Jesus, either wrote something but it never made it in, or didn't write anything.

The Koran, specifically states that an angel, one Gabriel brought a message from Allah, not sure how Gabriel received the message, however, Gabriel recited the message to prophet Mohammed, who in turn recited it to hearers, some of whom took copious notes, which were eventually compiled by a Calif(?) twice removed from the Prophet.

Frankly, I don't see how inspiration is even an issue. People talk, sometimes we listen. People write, sometimes we read what they wrote. We either agree, disagree, store it in the head to think about later, or dismiss it and try to not clutter the mind with it.