Why not war against Islam?

[Bill Thompson]

What's confusing you, exactly?



Suspected? Sure, by bigots who suspect every Muslims of being somehow in cahoots with terrorists.

But nobody has ever produced any evidence that CAIR is involved in funding Hizballah, Hamas, or any other terrorist organization.

CAIR tells its members to not speak with the FBI. That is a pretty dark gray area. It is suspicious at best. If they were sqeeky clean, they would welcome the FBI.

I don't think any of my Muslim friends are in cahoots with terrorists.

I also do not think any of my Mormon friends are anti-gay or racist.

That does not change how the policy is with those in charge or at the top of these orgs.

 

[citizenzen]

Is this why you assumed I was "attacking Islam" because you figured I must have some strong faith in another religion?

You don't need to have a strong faith in another religion in order to make fallacious generalizations about Islam.

Secularists are just as capable of doing the same thing.

 

[Cleon]

CAIR tells its members to not speak with the FBI. That is pretty a dark gray area. It is suspicious at best.

See ANTPogo's post. CAIR does not tell its members not to speak with the FBI.

 

[A'isha]

If you discount people who write books against Islam because of what they believe, you are not being fair. They might be against Islam AFTER they have done their research. In other words, maybe they did not set out to discredit Islam but it happened after they found some facts that were not reported much before.

Then that would make the fact that pretty much every one of these Islamophobic sites repeats virtually the same falsehoods and misconceptions (as well as betraying the same distinct lack of knowledge regarding what Muslim theologians actually say) raher odd, wouldn't it?

How many of them, for instance, know what I posted before, regarding the verses about jihad in the Qur'an? How many quote Asad or even Maududi?

Why is it that whenever someone posts a list of "troublesome" verses in the Qur'an, it's always the same list of verses in the same order, showing the same redactions to remove context, and repeating the same errors that even a cursory glance at an actual Qur'an would clear up?

 

[Almo]

We are at war with Islam if we believe it or not. The war is from the following:

• Critical Thinking
• Logic
• Reason
• Understanding Logical Fallacies
• Sagan's Balooney Detection Kit
• Occam's Razor
• Science
• Human Rights
• Homosexual Rights
• Woman's RIghts

Critical Thinking and Islam cannot coexist. Critical Thinking wins.
Logic and Islam cannot coexist. Logic wins.
Reason and Islam cannot coexist. Reason wins.
Islam cannot defend itself without using Logical fallacies. Once you understand logical fallacies, you can no longer accept Islam.

One cannot believe in the rights of women and the rights of gays and also believe in the right for Islam to exist.

People confuse Islam with being pro-muslim. Muslims are the victims of Islam. They need to be freed.

Then why was it that the Muslim world was doing all the science during the middle ages when Christianity was too scared to admit anything changed in the heavens?

 

[A'isha]

Is this why you assumed I was a religious person? Is this why you assumed I was "attacking Islam" because you figured I must have some strong faith in another religion?

What are you even talking about? I never once assumed you were a religious person, or assumed you were attacking Islam due to strong faith in another religion.

I was saying that it's easy to find out what followers of a religion actually believe, because they talk about their beliefs and write about them and cite the works of others who share their beliefs. Thus, trying to learn about what someone believes by solely referring to bits and pieces of basic scripture and the words of critics and bigots is an utterly wrongheaded way to approach the study of a religion and its followers on all kinds of levels.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Then why was it that the Muslim world was doing all the science during the middle ages when Christianity was too scared to admit anything changed in the heavens?

Myth.
The Golden Age of Islam is a Myth.

And it is a common misconception that Muslims discovered the earthcentric universe was invalid. They didn't.

 

[Bill Thompson]

What are you even talking about? I never once assumed you were a religious person, or assumed you were attacking Islam due to strong faith in another religion.

I was saying that it's easy to find out what followers of a religion actually believe, because they talk about their beliefs and write about them and cite the works of others who share their beliefs. Thus, trying to learn about what someone believes by solely referring to bits and pieces of basic scripture and the words of critics and bigots is an utterly wrongheaded way to approach the study of a religion and its followers on all kinds of levels.

OK. Do you think that some writings against Islam are from people who are unbiased?

 

[Bill Thompson]

See ANTPogo's post. CAIR does not tell its members not to speak with the FBI.

EDIT
I see
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/13/cair-says-anti-fbi-poster-misinterpreted/

 

[Cleon]

Really? So this poster is a lie? Are you saying this did NOT come from CAIR "nine years after 9-11"?

No, it didn't. It's an old poster dating to before CAIR even existed (you would know this had you bothered to read ANTPogo's links). Some local CAIR affiliate put it on their website, bigots made a stink, and CAIR's leadership told them to take it down. End of nonstory.

 

[A'isha]

OK. Do you think that some writings against Islam are from people who are unbaised?

Yes.

The works of Robert Spencer, Ibn Warraq, and thereligionofpeace.com, however, aren't among their number.

EDIT
I see
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/13/cair-says-anti-fbi-poster-misinterpreted/

Earlier you accused me of not reading your links. Did you read mine?

EDIT: I see you have read at least the Fox News one. Did you read the other?

 

[Bill Thompson]

No, it didn't. It's an old poster dating to before CAIR even existed (you would know this had you bothered to read ANTPogo's links). Some local CAIR affiliate put it on their website, bigots made a stink, and CAIR's leadership told them to take it down. End of nonstory.

I understand.

The poster did not come from CAIR, but they admit it was on their web site. They took it down.

The poster was promoting a conference called “FBI Raids and Grand Jury Subpoenas: Know Your Rights and Defend Our Communities.” The keynote speaker is Hatem Abudayyeh, identified by CAIR as an activist and Palestinian community leader whose home was allegedly raided by federal agents in September.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/13/cair-says-anti-fbi-poster-misinterpreted/#ixzz1UgKOcqyw

All this apologist back-pedaling does not change the fact, tho, that the poster WAS on their site and CAIR DID use it. It was to promote a confrence. It is all good and innocent. I gotcha.

Kind of a mixed message. CAIR has a long history of working with law enforcement and, at the same time, it has a conference called “FBI Raids and Grand Jury Subpoenas: Know Your Rights and Defend Our Communities.”

 

[Cleon]

I understand.

The poster did not come from CAIR, but they admit it was on their web site. They took it down.



All this apologist back-pedaling does not change the fact, tho, that the poster WAS on their site and CAIR DID use it. It was to promote a confrence. It is all good and innocent. I gotcha.

So, despite the fact that you know full well that this was not taken by the national organization, and did not originate with them, you've decided this means that CAIR tells its membership not to talk to the FBI. Gotcha.

Bill, seriously. Show a little skepticism. CAIR is a large, well-funded organization with a fairly sophisticated communication network. Don't you think that if they really wanted to tell their membership not to talk to the FBI, they'd have a method a little more direct than a local chapter reprinting a 30-year-old poster?

Kind of a mixed message. CAIR has a long history of working with law enforcement and, at the same time, it has a conference called “FBI Raids and Grand Jury Subpoenas: Know Your Rights and Defend Our Communities.”

Because heaven forbid people should know their constitutional rights, and not allow overzealous agents/cops to harass them.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Where do you draw the line between a harmful destructive cult that should be protested and fought (no, not physically) and a harmless ideology that is mostly good?

What traits would you assign to one or the other?

 

[bikerdruid]

Cherry Picking is a logical fallacy. Picking one honorable thing out of a stack of facts to support a claim is a logical fallacy. I mean The Battle of Badr where: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-self-defense.htm

amazing/
antpogo just told you what a crock of **** site 'religionofpeace' is, and you counter her with a further quote from the same site.
wow.
perhaps if you wish to emphasize the validity of your point, you should find another site as further evidence.
this is just like another member who argues about the truth of the bible, by quoting from the bible.

 

[Toontown]

By doing the first, you would learn something. Such as there really ARE Muslims who disagree with the cited minority. But you prefer the 2nd option.

That's it? That's all I'd get from volunteering to be buried under one of ANTpogo's word avalanches?

But I already knew the tedious little detail that different Muslim sects disagree with each other, often to the point of coming to blows. And that different sects disagree on the meaning of "jihad". Which does not alter the fact that jihad is the centerpiece of the religion, and yet they can't even agree on what that means. And yet I am supposedly the ignorant one, who doesn't know all the tedious little details of all the conflicting beliefs, translations, and interpretations.

The details of WHY ANTPogo holds the position he/she holds and makes the posts he/she makes are too tedious for you to bother with. But you want to attack the posts anyway.

The tedium of the details of false religious beliefs do not preclude me from being able to read about the utter tedium of it all. In fact, my ability to read about the utter tedium of it all is the primary motivator leading me to avoid spending hours, even days, perhaps even weeks nitpicking and nattering over the utter tedium of it all.

 

[Bill Thompson]

bikerdruid, welcome back.

Originally Posted by bikerdruid
wow.
way to miss the point(s), bill.
obviously, literally.

You do not post a point. So what if you can say similar things about another religion? What is your point? What is your point? What is your point? What is your point?

Here, just fill in the blank. "Since I can make similar comparisons to christianity this means that ____________ ______ _____ _____ _____ ___________."

 

[Bill Thompson]

amazing/
antpogo just told you what a crock of **** site 'religionofpeace' is, and you counter her with a further quote from the same site.
wow.

She said some things were wrong. I think you wish it was a crock for some reason. Why is that? If the web master got some things wrong that does not mean his point was wrong. It also does not mean he got everything wrong.

Is Einstien's Theory of Relativity wrong? Well, most of his proofs for it turned out to be wrong. But the theory is correct.

If someone makes errors in the support of a belief, that does not mean everything is an error.

I don't want my new questions to be lost in minutia:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7462858&postcount=600

antpogo, do you think OBL was or was not a champion of Islam? Even after 9-11, when I was working for FireTalk I would find people in the Muslim chat room saying he was a champion of Islam. If you say he was not, I have lots of follow-up questions. So, bikerdruid, is everything on thereligonofpeace a lie?

I still want to kow what your point is in saying that christianity is bad? What is your point and what does that have to do with Islam?

Do you like Islam?

Where do you draw the line between a harmful destructive cult that should be protested and fought (no, not physically) and a harmless ideology that is mostly good?

What traits would you assign to one or the other?

 

[Leumas]

Where do you draw the line between a harmful destructive cult that should be protested and fought (no, not physically) and a harmless ideology that is mostly good?

What traits would you assign to one or the other?

AGAIN.....your COGNITIVE DISSONANCE is blatantly obvious......

I definitely would put Judaism, Christianity and Islam on the "harmful destructive cult" side.

On the "harmless ideology that is mostly good" side of the DICHOTOMY…. I don't know of any religion that fits that bill.....but DEFINITELY not any religion that stems from the -

Infanticidal, Megalomaniacal, Homicidal, Racist, LYING, RAPING, INCESTUAL, Jealous, Lustful, Gluttonous, Greedy, Slothful, Envious, Vain, Pompous, Wrathful, Vengeful, Deceitful, Egotistical, Malevolent, Benighted MORON called YHWH (a.k.a Jesus, a.k.a. Allah).​

ETA: all the above traits can be proven through the Bible itself.

 

[FireGarden]

That's it? That's all I'd get from volunteering to be buried under one of ANTpogo's word avalanches?

By actually reading what Muslims say about their beliefs you might learn why Muslims "bother with the ancient benighted belief system". If you're not interested in that, then you're not interested.

But I already knew the tedious little detail that different Muslim sects disagree with each other, often to the point of coming to blows. And that different sects disagree on the meaning of "jihad". Which does not alter the fact that jihad is the centerpiece of the religion, and yet they can't even agree on what that means. And yet I am supposedly the ignorant one, who doesn't know all the tedious little details of all the conflicting beliefs, translations, and interpretations.

I quoted Mark6 so that your words would have context. He didn't use 'jihad' -- you used that word. Mark6 used: 'war against infidels'.

Then you replied:
"The call for jihad is the centerpiece of the religion. If the majority of Muslims disagree, then why do they even bother with the ancient benighted belief system? Are they afraid their Muslim brothers will murder them if they renounce Islam?"

And, yes, you are ignorant -- by your own admission.

The tedium of the details of false religious beliefs do not preclude me from being able to read about the utter tedium of it all. In fact, my ability to read about the utter tedium of it all is the primary motivator leading me to avoid spending hours, even days, perhaps even weeks nitpicking and nattering over the utter tedium of it all.

And thereby miss out on WHY educated people say the things they do.