Are We More Than Just a Machine?

Originally posted by Iacchus--
quote:
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Originally posted by El Greco
So I've given up on that. I just wonder what makes you repeat the same old sorry arguments day after day, month after month, year after year.
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Do you even know what sorry is? Obviously not.
I'm sure this has been posted before (after all, Iacchus is nearing 5000 posts), but the most likely impetus is a raging inferiority complex, against which he has developed a defense of "I'm the only one who understands, therefore I'm more important than all these others." Unfortunately, he is also driven to post this, and that leads to unflattering comparisons with people who have developed the ability to critically examine ideas. When the ideas are examined, and the gossamer nature of their structure emerges, he is back at the beginnig of the cycle, but with an increased need to prove worth.

Originally posted by Iacchus
...snip...
Well, the only time we can recognize anything worth knowing is in the moment. Yet to the degree that we seek knowledge, we lose sight of the moment. So, it would seem there should be some happy trade-off here.
...snip...
By the way, "living in the moment," is what prepares us for the bus which is about smack into us head-on ... Otherwise we won't see it coming.
So seeking knowledge is a bad thing? Worse than the bus about to smack into us head-on? But the bus isn't in the moment, is it? It's still in the future, until the moment when it actually smacks us.

No wonder he refuses to answer questions. He has it all worked out in the space between his ears, where nobody can look and point out the fallacies. He has himself convinced that it's a good, sound philosophy, ranking him at the top of the world's thinkers, and because he is so thoroughly convinced, he cannot help himself but to bring it into the daylight and share it with us. For him, it's a no-lose situation, because if he can convince skeptics, he must be right, and if he can't, well, they're skeptics and closed-minded.

Therapy might be helpful, but successful therapy depends on the patient being ready to recognize the need for a personal, internal change and willing to work to make the needed change within himself. Iacchus isn't there yet.
 
Meadmaker said:
....snip...

On some level, it makes no difference. We are what we are, whether we like it or not. But if we are "just" machines, it's hard to imagine why we ought to do anything other than live for the moment, doing as we please, and not caring one whit for the next generation of machines or for the feelings of our fellow machines.

Many people would say that our society in fact has a lot of people who behave in exactly that way, and that we are not better off for it.

As a follow on why is it "hard to imagine why we ought to do anything other than live for the moment"? To me this indicates you think that a "machine human" compared to "non-machine human" would somehow be less, that it would lack something essentially human.
 
Meadmaker ,

Meadmaker said:
The evidence is inconclusive in either direction.
Materialism is saying nothing more than the available evidence. Dualism goes beyond the evidence.

Meadmaker said:
So if I go with intuition, I am not necessarily going against the evidence.
No, but you are going beyond the evidence. Intuition is a means to an end - which is to direct you where to look for more evidence.

Meadmaker said:
I am going with some evidence, and against others.
Hmmm....I'm not sure, why would you go against any evidence? Do you ditch evidence that goes against your pet belief?

Meadmaker said:
Also, the existence of intuition is, in fact, evidence.
Intuition is not evidence. Evidence puts your intuition to the test.

Meadmaker said:
I don't know what I'll do in the long run. I remain open to the possibilities, and skeptical of all of them.
Intuition opens up possibilities, which is important, but scepticism accepts none of these possibilities without evidence.

regards,
BillyJoe
 
Intuition opens up possibilities, which is important, but scepticism accepts none of these possibilities without evidence.
Well said.
 
BillyJoe said:
Meadmaker ,

Materialism is saying nothing more than the available evidence. Dualism goes beyond the evidence.

No, but you are going beyond the evidence. Intuition is a means to an end - which is to direct you where to look for more evidence.

Hmmm....I'm not sure, why would you go against any evidence? Do you ditch evidence that goes against your pet belief?

Intuition is not evidence. Evidence puts your intuition to the test.

Intuition opens up possibilities, which is important, but scepticism accepts none of these possibilities without evidence.

regards,
BillyJoe
Excellent post!
 
What is an idea? Mental or physical? If it's not physical, how can a single idea be so powerful? Don't you get it (and this isn't necessarily directed towards you RanFan), we are all motivated by what moves us, and that is spiritual.
 
Iacchus said:
What is an idea? Mental or physical? If it's not physical, how can a single idea be so powerful? Don't you get it (and this isn't necessarily directed towards you RanFan), we are all motivated by what moves us, and that is spiritual.

Please define what you mean by "spiritual" in the above.
 
BillyJoe said:
Meadmaker ,

Materialism is saying nothing more than the available evidence. Dualism goes beyond the evidence.

This is incorrect. Materialism also goes beyond the available evidence.

Let's make an analogy. Is there life on other planets?

The available evidence consists of ... nothing.

We can look at what exists on Earth, and we can construct a theory that predicts that there will be life on other planets based on that theory. However, the evidence that would confirm that theory is...nothing.

So, since there is no evidence of life on other planets, if I make the statement, "There is no life on other planets." am I "saying nothing more than the available evidence?" Absolutely not. We do not have enough evidence to say whether or not there is life on other planets. We have a theory which predicts that there should be life on other planets, but that theory has yet to be confirmed based on experimental observations. If I assert that there either is or is not life on other planets, I am going beyond the available evidence.

So it is with dualism. I have no evidence that there is anything beyond the material. However, I also have no evidence that there is nothing beyond the material. If I embrace either position, I have gone beyond the available evidence.

(I probably shouldn't say "no evidence". I should probably say, "No conclusive evidence" or even "no worthwhile evidence".


Intuition is not evidence. Evidence puts your intuition to the test.


The existence of intuition suggests something beyond the material. We have consciousness. (I am assuming that I am not the only conscious being in the universe, an assumption I make without proof.) I not only exist, but I am aware of my existence. How did that happen?

I see two possibilities. One is that only matter exists, and that matter interacts in very complex ways. The particular matter that makes up my brain and my body interact in such a way that they make each other react to things that are happening in parts of the system, and somehow, part of that reaction is the phenomenon of consciousness.

But if that is the case, what is unique about human beings, or brains? Nothing, really. There are plenty of very complex systems in the universe. Is it possible that they, too, are aware? The universe itself is a very complex system, and one part of it reacts to what another part of it is doing. Is it conscious? We can't rule it out. That wouldn't contradict materialism, but I would venture to say that most materialists will reject that possibility. However, if they do, that is going beyond the available evidence.

The second possibility is that matter and consciousness are closely bound, but have independent existences. Buddhist teaching says that consciousness creates matter. Do you have any way of disproving that hypothesis? I can't think of one.

So which is true? What explains consciousness? Experimentally, we can't know. However, we have intuition. That intuition seems more than just automatic functioning. That intuition seems more than just simple stimulus/response behavior. We don't just behave as if we have consciousness, we really do have it. That suggests to me that consciousness may be more than material.

Evidence? Very weak. But it does fit with a theory.


Intuition opens up possibilities, which is important, but scepticism accepts none of these possibilities without evidence.


But neither does it reject possibilities without evidence. Scepticism refuses to reach a conclusion unless the evidence is conclusive. The evidence for materialism or for dualism is inconclusive, so a true skeptic would not embrace either.
 
Meadmaker,

Meadmaker said:
I have no evidence that there is anything beyond the material. However, I also have no evidence that there is nothing beyond the material. If I embrace either position, I have gone beyond the available evidence.
We can only ever have evidence about the material. Which is to say, we can never have evidence about anthing beyond the material. In other words, if you go with the evidence, you go with the material. And, if you go beyond the evidence, you go beyond the material.

Meadmaker said:
The existence of intuition suggests something beyond the material.....intuition seems more than just simple stimulus/response behavior. We don't just behave as if we have consciousness.....That suggests to me that consciousness may be more than material.
I agree with your choice of words (the underlined words above). It suggests, it seems, it is as if there is something beyond the material. But, in actual fact, there is no evidence that there is.

Meadmaker said:
But neither does [scepticism] reject possibilities without evidence. Scepticism refuses to reach a conclusion unless the evidence is conclusive. The evidence for materialism or for dualism is inconclusive, so a true skeptic would not embrace either.
Our definitions of scepticism differ. Your definition of scepticism is my definition of agnosticism. For me, scepticism means holding a belief in only those things for which there is evidence, and not holding a belief in those things for which there is no evidence.

regards,
BillyJoe
 
BillyJoe said:
Meadmaker,

We can only ever have evidence about the material.

This is incorrect. We can only have evidence about the material through the use of the material.

Steve Martin comedy routine from the 1970s: (more or less)

"Imagine if you die, and you wake up and you're in heaven. And there are clouds, and angels, and harps, and God is there with a long white beard. You would say, 'Oh wow. In college, they said this was all bulls**t!' "

If consciousness continues after death, then if we find one day that we are dead, and we still have consciousness, then we have acquired evidence of the non-material.

James Randi searches for evidence of the non-material all the time. That doesn't mean he will ever find it, and indeed he doesn't expect to find it. However, if it were impossible to find it, then the million dollar challenge would be pointless.

Our definitions of scepticism differ.

Mine agrees with that posted at dictionary.com:


1. A doubting or questioning attitude or state of mind; dubiety. See Synonyms at uncertainty.
2. Philosophy.
a.The ancient school of Pyrrho of Elis that stressed the uncertainty of our beliefs in order to oppose dogmatism.
b. The doctrine that absolute knowledge is impossible, either in a particular domain or in general.
c. A methodology based on an assumption of doubt with the aim of acquiring approximate or relative certainty.
3. Doubt or disbelief of religious tenets.
 
Darat said:
Please define what you mean by "spiritual" in the above.
Well, let's just say that since man's environment is defined wholly by why what is mental, that it is something other than what is physical ...
 
Iacchus said:
Well, let's just say that since man's environment is defined wholly by why what is mental, that it is something other than what is physical ...

Lifegazer will be so proud. He finally has a disciple.

Albeit, one who can't quite get the teachings exactly right- but I guess you take what you can get in the messiah biz.
 
Piscivore said:
Lifegazer will be so proud. He finally has a disciple.

Albeit, one who can't quite get the teachings exactly right- but I guess you take what you can get in the messiah biz.
Surely you can't speak to me from the standpoint of anything other than what you believe ...
 
Iacchus said:
Surely you can't speak to me from the standpoint of anything other than what you believe ...
...and since belief is all absolutely identical, whether you believe something because the evidence is overwhelming, or believe something independently of evidence, or (as Iacchus does) believe something despite all available evidence...it must be the case that all beliefs are therefore equal...

:rolleyes:
 
Meadmaker,

Meadmaker said:
This is incorrect.
:cool:

Meadmaker said:
We can only have evidence about the material through the use of the material.
What great insights are you revealing through your use of that add-on phrase, pray tell?

Meadmaker said:
Steve Martin comedy routine from the 1970s: (more or less)

"Imagine if you die, and you wake up and you're in heaven. And there are clouds, and angels, and harps, and God is there with a long white beard. You would say, 'Oh wow. In college, they said this was all bulls**t!' "
Don't look now, but this comedy routine was meant to be.....a comedy routine!

Meadmaker said:
If consciousness continues after death, then if we find one day that we are dead, and we still have consciousness, then we have acquired evidence of the non-material.
The immaterial will have acquired evidence of the immaterial!
Good one, Meady! :D

Meadmaker said:
James Randi searches for evidence of the non-material all the time. That doesn't mean he will ever find it, and indeed he doesn't expect to find it. However, if it were impossible to find it, then the million dollar challenge would be pointless.
It wouldn't be pointless if we did't know whether or not it was impossible now would it? In any case, I fail to see your point.

Meadmaker said:
Mine [definition of scepticism] agrees with that posted at dictionary.com:

1. A doubting or questioning attitude or state of mind; dubiety. See Synonyms at uncertainty.
2. Philosophy.
a.The ancient school of Pyrrho of Elis that stressed the uncertainty of our beliefs in order to oppose dogmatism.
b. The doctrine that absolute knowledge is impossible, either in a particular domain or in general.
c. A methodology based on an assumption of doubt with the aim of acquiring approximate or relative certainty.
3. Doubt or disbelief of religious tenets.
If you read carefully, so does mine. ;) (hint: see 2c)


regards (But if you say "This is incorrect" one more time.....),
BillyJoe
 
BillyJoe said:


What great insights are you revealing through your use of that add-on phrase, pray tell?

I cannot use some sort of material device to detect the nonmaterial, but I can use nonmaterial means to detect the nonmaterial.

Actually, strictly speaking, even that is not true. Many people believe that the nonmaterial can affect the material. When James Randi conducts an experiment searching for psychic powers, he is measure the effects of someone's powers on the material world. If there is no "ordinary" explanation, then the believer will assert, with some foundation, that their is something nonmaterial.

i.e. if someone really could provide accurate, verifiable information that could only have been obtained by speaking to their dead uncle Vince, then it would be reasonable to assume that Uncle Vince still exists in a nonmaterial form, and was communicating to those of us who are not yet in the spirit realm.





The immaterial will have acquired evidence of the immaterial!
Good one, Meady! :D


Exactly. If the immaterial exists, then it can acquire evidence of the immaterial, contradicting the assertion that it is impossible to acquire evidence of the immaterial.

But we cannot assert that the something doesn't exist just because we can't prove it exists. It may or may not exist.

Thought for the day. Condi Rice as a Baptist preacher:

"We don't want the smoking gun to be a lake of fire and brimstone!"


It wouldn't be pointless if we did't know whether or not it was impossible now would it? In any case, I fail to see your point.


Apparently. You made an assertion that it was impossible to acquire evidence of the immaterial. However, James Randi is trying to do exactly that. Or at least, his claimants are trying to do exactly that. If there is no such thing as the immaterial, then clearly it will not be possible to find any such evidence. However, if we assert that it is impossible to find such evidence, we are assuming that the evidence cannot exist. It's a form of circular reasoning.


If you read carefully, so does mine. ;) (hint: see 2c)


I think you are misapplying 2C.

c. A methodology based on an assumption of doubt with the aim of acquiring approximate or relative certainty.


You aren't creating an assumption of doubt with respect to materialism vs dualism. You are creating an assumption of non-belief in dualism, which is not the same as doubt.
 
Mercutio said:
...and since belief is all absolutely identical, whether you believe something because the evidence is overwhelming, or believe something independently of evidence, or (as Iacchus does) believe something despite all available evidence...it must be the case that all beliefs are therefore equal...

:rolleyes:
Oh, I am merely saying it is possible to be mistaken. So yes, in that sense all beliefs are equal ...
 
Meadmaker said:
If there is no such thing as the immaterial, then clearly it will not be possible to find any such evidence. However, if we assert that it is impossible to find such evidence, we are assuming that the evidence cannot exist. It's a form of circular reasoning.
Yes.
 
L7Cz said:
No wonder he refuses to answer questions. He has it all worked out in the space between his ears, where nobody can look and point out the fallacies. He has himself convinced that it's a good, sound philosophy, ranking him at the top of the world's thinkers, and because he is so thoroughly convinced, he cannot help himself but to bring it into the daylight and share it with us. For him, it's a no-lose situation, because if he can convince skeptics, he must be right, and if he can't, well, they're skeptics and closed-minded.
God does exist ... by the way. ;) Which, is the only thing different that I'm stipulating from what anyone else is stipulating around here.
 

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