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Split Thread Are post-feminism women happier?

Are you only looking at and considering western european, christian periods of time as "tradition"? You certainly don't seem to be considering pre-christian celtic traditions. And you don't appear to be considering middle eastern and indian traditions as "traditions".
All of those are traditions in the sense I intended there. The last paragraph of the post your replied to clarifies it a little. In as much as any of them stand in the way of people participating in liberalism, liberalism will seek to undermine them.

So far as I can tell, you're working from a very nebulous concept of an Arthurian fiefdom sort of basis as "tradition" and assuming that any change from there is "liberalism". But in so doing, you seem to be hand-waving away all of the cultural changes that came before.
No.. not any change. Typically it would be changes driven by claims of individual liberty conceived as freedom from non-individualistically framed constraints, equality and rationalism. We live in a liberal society. Our wars are justified with reference to liberal ideals. The overall direction of change is driven by liberalism. That isn't to say that the results are what liberalism promises.
 
Just google "the paradox of declining female happiness". You'll find the paper.

I'm not trying to look up the paper. I'm trying to find out what time period you're speaking of. Can't you just say?
 
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I'm not trying to look up the paper. I'm trying to find out what time period you're speaking of. Can't you just say?
Because I keep having to re-summarise everything. 1972 to present is the period for which there seems to be good data.

"All told, more than 1.3 million men and women have been surveyed over the last 40 years, both here in the U.S. and in developed countries around the world. Wherever researchers have been able to collect reliable data on happiness, the finding is always the same: greater educational, political, and employment opportunities have corresponded to decreases in life happiness for women, as compared to men."

At least have a read of the first page of the thread.
 
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Because I keep having to re-summarise everything. 1972 to present is the period for which there seems to be good data.

"All told, more than 1.3 million men and women have been surveyed over the last 40 years, both here in the U.S. and in developed countries around the world. Wherever researchers have been able to collect reliable data on happiness, the finding is always the same: greater educational, political, and employment opportunities have corresponded to decreases in life happiness for women, as compared to men."

At least have a read of the first page of the thread.

So just to confirm, your conclusion is that in 1972 most people in developed countries were happier than they are now? If I sound like I'm being redundant I just want to make a direct connection between what you posted and what you claim for a conclusion.
 
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So just to confirm, your conclusion is that in 1972 most people in developed countries were happier than they are now? If I sound like I'm being redundant I just want to make a direct connection between what you posted and what you claim for a conclusion.
Will you just read the first page? I'm not having the same discussion in different parallel timelines where progress is impossible because I am continually having to begin again with somebody.

It's bad enough correcting the same mischaracterisations over and over from people who have participated in the whole thread.
 
I am happy working and taking care of my own things. But it's pretty hard to compare my daily reality to some hypothetical other reality. Maybe if I were never given the option, I'd have found happiness in another way.

But this topic is creepy, at the end of the day, because it implies that Women are a monolith who would all be happy with the same things, while Men are all individuals who find happiness in different ways. So that's just a weird thing to imply. There are differences between men and women, but we are all humans, and humans are different. They want different things; they like different things.

I don't want children. People who don't want children tend to be lousy parents. If society had forced them on me, I believe I would still have been a lousy parent. So what good is that to anybody? People like me should just be able to bow out, and thanks to women having rights now, we can. I see that as a net good. It's so weird that this has to be explained, but since we are living in such disastrous times, I suppose I can understand the urge to blame something and return to some prior moral standard. It's dumb, IMO, but I can sort of understand it.

If a woman were asking these questions and posting walls of text about the subject, it might feel more honest to me. Men saying this kind of stuff frightens me.
 
But this topic is creepy, at the end of the day, because it implies that Women are a monolith who would all be happy with the same things, while Men are all individuals who find happiness in different ways.
I'm not sure that it does imply men and women are monoliths. Equally, men and women are different in ways that go very deep. I mean, we are talking about a seperation that occured 1-2 billion years ago. Men and women, and the attraction between them isn't something that culture invented. Men and women aren't attracted to one another because they are the same. Men and women had different instinctual roles within family and tribe long before the evolution of humans. Apes evolved, what 25 million years ago and you see the same kinds of difference in behaviour, and the same kind of social roles that you see in humans. Is this a 100 million year long trick that males have played on females that evolution has somehow decided to entirely ignore, or are there fundamental differences in the behaviours of men and women?

The idea that you can socially engineer away the tendency for women to overwhelmingly be the ones caring for children without having to lean very hard against nature is ridiculous. Once you do have a significant gap in something like this, you are going to naturally get a whole bunch of reinforcement mechanisms forming to push the gap wider. Women get to be a mother amongst lots of mothers at baby groups. Men are always going to be in a minority which is going to make it intrinsically less appealing. Inevitably caring for the baby is going to be associated with women.

This process of an evolutionary difference being widened by cultural feedback is close to unavoidable. I suppose one could go full 1984 and try to crush it, but honestly.... is trying to supress nature in this way a path to happiness? Other than that we believe in liberalist axioms, is there a reason for believing this?

So that's just a weird thing to imply. There are differences between men and women, but we are all humans, and humans are different. They want different things; they like different things.
But there are trends in that, and men and women trend differently. This is very obviously the case. Also, the way in which men and women are different is what human life and human culture are built on. Our brains are built around this reality. This is like one of these arguments where because 1% of women are stronger than 50% of men we just can't say that men are stronger than women. Sure there are butch lesbians who want to become fighter pilots, and there are soft, gentle men who's most burning desire is to be a kindergarten teacher..... but these are outliers.

What I see around me is a lot of the school mums who were successful, married older, richer husbands and then stopped working to have kids, do yoga and meet one another for lunch. Very, very few men do this. Men and women are different. Are we going to socially engineer out the male tendency to be attracted to youth and health, and the female tendency to be attracted to strength and success? The impact of these differences are huge.

I don't want children. People who don't want children tend to be lousy parents. If society had forced them on me, I believe I would still have been a lousy parent. So what good is that to anybody?
Nobody is talking about forcing you to have children. I don't know where you are getting this from. I have had female friends who definitely didn't want children and then in their 30s suddenly developed baby fever. Maybe this isn't you, I don't know. There have always been men and women who didn't have children, though I think in classical greece there was some kind of penalty for this very early on.... maybe 700BC or something.

However, we all have to live in the same society with the same set of incentives. By moving to a society where both members of a couple are expected to work, and shall we say the gentle encouragement is for women to establish themselves in a career before they have children, and then go back to work..... you are changing society to suit childless people better, and suit people who have children less well.

Having lots of women in the workforce alters the economics so it is now harder to afford to stop work to raise children in a more traditional manner. There aren't the communities any longer to make it easier to raise children in the traditional manner. The world hasn't just become a universally free choice where all choices have been made easier. Some life choices have been made harder. We have chosen to make harder the life choices that are needed to sustain the culture, the civilisation.... and so we now have below replacement birth rates.

People like me should just be able to bow out, and thanks to women having rights now, we can.
Rights make it sound all doe eyed and as if it's just about you as an individual being able to do this and it doesn't impact anybody else who isn't a bigot. Back in the 70s it was possible for a woman who really didn't want children not to have them. I agree that society wasn't really geared to that choice. Now it is, but to do that, other choices were made harder.

It's bigger than that though, because we aren't really just talking about having the right to do X. In the thread on transgenderism Rolfe was talking about how differently female toilets function to male ones. They are female spaces and women interact in them differently to how men interact. To make the world friendly to women, those male spaces, and male ways of interacting have had to be systematically erased and suppressed. This isn't just a "getting the right to do X". This is completely changing the culture to make it easy for you to do X and comfortable for you to do X. In my work, last international women's day there were pushes for hiring targets to get IT 50% female. Society is now driven by this lunatic idea that there should be at least 50% women in all desirable positions (or in the case of IT not even that desirable). I think it is rather more of a radical process than you imply.

I see that as a net good.
Again, having the right is a very different thing from changing the whole of society so that you face no structural obstacles. You phrase it as if it was a small ask, when in fact the ask is much more like in the transgenderism thread where people want to solve the bathroom problem by replacing all facilities with single private stalls and ending all that female interaction.... only obviously on a much bigger scale.

It's so weird that this has to be explained, but since we are living in such disastrous times, I suppose I can understand the urge to blame something and return to some prior moral standard. It's dumb, IMO, but I can sort of understand it.
It's not an urge to blame others. I don't blame women. I think the forces that made this happen are rather bigger than than women are were kind of inevitable. I think you, like everybody else is coming at this with an individualistic frame as if maximizing your own freedom is a good, and if everybody else has their individual freedom maximized then somehow all that will not create a tragedy of the commons. But making it easier and more comfortable to pursue the lifestyle that the set of incentives of our society directs at you and the things that are peculiar to you have caused you to choose, make other choices harder for other people.

At the end of the day we are back to the starting question. Has all this made women happier? In the case of the US, women report less life satisfaction than they did in 1972 and went from being more satisfied than men to less satisfied than men. If indeed women were more satisfied in 1972, then surely life in the US in 1972 was more suited to women than men, while now the reverse is true. I'm sure there were outlier women who 1972 didn't suit at all, just as there are outlier women now. The issue is that society has been reconfigured around the desires of those outlier women in 1972 and marketed to everybody.

If a woman were asking these questions and posting walls of text about the subject, it might feel more honest to me. Men saying this kind of stuff frightens me.
I can't help my sex. Nothing I've said depends on my sex. What do you think specifically is dishonest in the above? Can you be specific? What I keep getting back is "but my lived experience makes me feel this". Where in my above argument do I go wrong? I kind of feel like the critical bit is about sex differences being deep and innate, feedback loops naturally causing them to widen, and that that naturally means that society favours some lifestyles over others unless we lean on it hard at which point we are committing to a battle with our natures that can never be won.
 
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https://www.youtube.com/shorts/faSJPiACUHc

Opponents of feminism just want to make women into servants of men. They seek to force them into stereotypical gender rolls.
This is the problem with these arguments. I'm coming at this from the perspective of realism. How does the world work? How do people work? What is possible? What I'm met with is religious commitment to how people think the world ought to work. My argument is that it doesn't actually work like that. Do you want to argue that, or just wheel on a different opponent and fight that instead?
 
This is the problem with these arguments. I'm coming at this from the perspective of realism. How does the world work? How do people work? What is possible? What I'm met with is religious commitment to how people think the world ought to work. My argument is that it doesn't actually work like that. Do you want to argue that, or just wheel on a different opponent and fight that instead?

You're coming at it from the perspective of "my parent always cut the ends off of the roast before cooking it... so that's how making a roast works - you cut the ends off first." You aren't even asking *why* your parent cut the ends off, so you can never find out that it's because they only had a small roasting pan and it wouldn't fit. You have a large roasting pan... but you are cutting the ends off of the roast anyway because that's how it has always worked in the past.

Slavery was "how the world worked" when we had slavery. We don't have slavery now. The world appears to still be working.

With respect to the social role of females in society, the only thing that is a strict "that's how that works" is that females are the ones who gestate and deliver infants. Every single other bit of this discussion is a discussion between what you think it ought to be and what I think it ought to be (or anyone else of course). Your argument is effectively that things for females ought to be the way they were 50-some years ago.

Unsurprisingly, I disagree with your ought.
 
You're coming at it from the perspective of "my parent always cut the ends off of the roast before cooking it... so that's how making a roast works - you cut the ends off first." You aren't even asking *why* your parent cut the ends off, so you can never find out that it's because they only had a small roasting pan and it wouldn't fit. You have a large roasting pan... but you are cutting the ends off of the roast anyway because that's how it has always worked in the past.

Slavery was "how the world worked" when we had slavery. We don't have slavery now. The world appears to still be working.
Slavery was simply a mechanism by which the people in charge got people to work for them under varying constraints. There have been many such systems. You have slavery, sure, but also serfdom where peasants are tied to the land and while they can not be sold, neither are they free. Generally this system existed in societies where wealth was measured by land. When serfdom ended the peasants were made to work by charging them rent for the land. Now people are made to work through debt, rent and so on. Slavery ended when it became inefficient.

These are all just different ways of organising a society so that the bulk of the population work to the benefit of a small proportion who organise and run society. That's been the way of the world since the dawn of civilisation. We work in a mercantile service economy now, so the method of doing that are the methods of a mercantile service economy. The basic goal is the same though. We were liberated from the fields to work in the factories and then from the factories to offices.

With respect to the social role of females in society, the only thing that is a strict "that's how that works" is that females are the ones who gestate and deliver infants. Every single other bit of this discussion is a discussion between what you think it ought to be and what I think it ought to be (or anyone else of course). Your argument is effectively that things for females ought to be the way they were 50-some years ago.
I'm not arguing how it ought to be. I am pointing out that as women have become more powerful in the aspects of society feminists wanted them to become powerful in, and as society has been reorganised along the lines feminists wanted.... women have become less happy. As I keep saying, if that isn't sufficient reason for us to question the core assumptions of feminism, what could every happen that would cause us to question them? They are non-falsifiable dogmas. It's a religious conviction.

It's just deluded to think that the only difference between men and women is that women have babies. Perhaps that is the origin of the difference, but women's brains and womens bodies and men's brains and men's bodies and the cultures that we all live in have evolved around that basic fact.

Look at what women find attractive in men, not what we think they should find attractive, but who they in fact go for. On average, it is men who are older than them, tall, strong and have better access to resources and status. I believe there are stats that have young women grading 80% of men as below average. Look at men.... they are much less choosy than women and generally look for youth and health. It's basically exactly what you would expect from evolution.

If you ignore all of that because it's so 1950s, what you will get is a society where women have a lot of sexual partners while they are young, while most men will have hardly any and a few will make out like bandits. Those high status men will have no motivation to settle down with the women they have been sleeping with because there are always younger ones coming up. High status women will find it impossible to find a higher status man to settle down with. Low status men will drop out of the whole thing. Women in their 30s will increasingly find they have missed the moment to have kids or will be disappointed by the men who will actually want to settle down with them so will have to have them alone. This is the system that liberation builds.

The above is just one example. Building a society in defiance of these facts is an exercise in trying to turn back reality like King Canute trying to turn back the tide.

The 1950s can never come again for a variety of reasons. I think for people to be happy, we have to live in some kind of harmony with reality not in a constant battle against it, chasing promises that will never be realised.

It is depressing that we never move on with this discussion. You are still attributing to me the same position you attributed to me at the beginning. All you do is repeatedly map the tired old feminist idea of men want to oppress women and get them back into the kitchen to recover their power onto me. You don't engage with my arguments, you just psychoanalyse them so you don't have to.

Unsurprisingly, I disagree with your ought.
You made up the ought for me. After all I've written in this thread, the accusation that I think women belong in the kitchen because that's how it was in the past is borderline dishonest.
 
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Incidentally, I never did find the time to properly answer a question of yours from a while ago.... I wrote something incomplete, so I'll post it now. If I don't do it now, I likely never will. It isn't particularly focused, but maybe it goes someway to an answer. Since writing this I read Why Liberalism Failed by Patrick J. Deneen which if I had time I would incorporate as that was on this area as well.

I'll also say that the scope of this is too broad for me to commit to defending here. I'm happy to point you in the direction of more detailed explanations if you want them.

I'm really going to need more than your bare assertion on this. You've essentially taken the position that liberalism inevitably leads to regressive dehumanization and the removal of rights... which I'm not seeing.
It's a tough question.

I think the best answer I can give you is just a bit of a narrative account of what I think. There are probably big chunks of it you aren't going to agree with. I'm not sure that I am able to dive into defending this along with the happiness thing, but I feel like I owe you an attempt at an answer. I'm going to cover a lot and try and write this from memory in one sitting, so please go easy on me. This is just postit notes in my head that I'm pulling together.

IN THE BEGINNING....
Before the Enlightenment gave us liberalism, you had feudalism. Ordinary people were bound to the land and had for a thousand years or so specialised in particular occupations that tended to be handed down. There was social mobility, but it was slow and limited. There were a number of hierarchies, one of them had the king at the top with various barons below him and levels of minor gentry below them until you got to the villains who were bound to the land and the free men below them. There were other hierarchies like the church running at the same time. All this was justified by religion - the king has been sanctified by God, or the Pope and by analogy to the hierarchical of the family. The idea of property rights were and handing on your land in some great unbroken chain dates back to pre-history of ancestor worship and is the underlying spiritual justification for the dynastic monarchy.

The workings of the family and the duties and responsibilities are the origins of the great chain of being and the idea of the peasant having duties to his lord, and the lord having responsibilities to the peasant. Again, it's a direct analog to the hierarchical responsibility of the son to the father and the father to the son.

As I said, that system survived for a loooong time. Parts of it go back to the bronze age at least. That model of the family and then extending out like a fractal to manage society was super stable.

THE COMING OF LIBERALISM
So, the barons and the king and the church and the peasants and so on formed different groups that were played off against each other in a kind of game of thrones. The king needed the barons because they controlled the peasants, and the king needed the peasants so he could raise taxes and armies. If we are talking about England, then another group that became important were the financier/money lending class that were brought in after the conquest. I mention them because they are important later, but they allow the king to raise money without having to to raise taxes, but of course once the king is in debt to you, maybe you have some power over the king. Anyway.... towns start to appear on the edges of these baronial lands as a way of draining power away from the barons. In the country you are bound to the land and can only leave it with the permission of the lord. If you lived in the town for a year and a day you were free. Various laws were past that built up the towns as commercial centers thus bringing in wealth independent of the barons and encouraged by the king.

What all this leads to is a banking and merchant class slowly forming and becoming increasingly powerful. First in medieval Florence and places like that, then spreading across Europe. Liberalism comes out of the interests of this class. Since they are speculating, and trading goods between regions controlled by different Lords, or even different Kings.... much more formal property rights start to become important. They want to collapse the social hierarchy... they are richer than the barons, why are the barons above them... so appeals to equality are made.... they want to be free to trade and conduct business without all this feudal nonsense, so liberty comes in. Every ruling elite needs some self justifying set of beliefs to legitimate their rule, it's no coincidence that liberalism appeared at just the time when the financial/banker class needed exactly those values.

At first this was a shift in power away from the barons to the king, now supported by the merchants and bankers. However, the more complicated world that all this trade and industry created meant that a complicated administrative infrastructure was needed around the king. What eventually happens is that this administrative infrastructure realises it doesn't need the king, and the power of the king begins to fade.

What I am effectively saying in a very long winded way is that liberalism is the political philosophy of capitalism.

TWO FORMS OF LIBERALISM
I have mixed feelings about Thomas Sowell, but one of the things from him I do like is the idea of the constrained and the unconstrained vision. You see this in different ideas of the nature of man. Some traditions see man as fallen and necessarily given to all sorts of temptations and sins and that we are very limited in terms of what we can do about that and that everything is a compromise. They tend to be keener on organic development over time, incremental change, finding out what works empirically and are suspicious of theory. Then you have the unconstrained vision who believe man is perfectible, you don't really have to compromise and problems that have dogged man for millenia can be fixed if we only set our mind to it and follow this theory they are convinced of. The American Revolution is an example of one with a lot of constrained vision, and the French Revolution is one with a lot of unconstrained vision.

I think the unconstrained vision won out. We are talking about Feminism, so lets go with that, but it's only one of a number of these unconstrained vision programmes of the 20th century. All these are attempts to fundamentally re-engineer society based on liberal principles and an idea that society is failing to live up to some ideal. We aren't being like Burke on the French Revolution and being sceptical about re-engineering society to conform to abstract principle.

THE MARXISTS
Back in the 1920s/30s you had a bunch of disgruntled Marxists in Europe. The Marxist revolution hadn't happened like it was supposed to - contradictions in capitalism arising in the advanced industrial economies causing organized labour to rise up. It had happened in one of the most backward countries in Europe, had been effectively a top down coup rather than some great bottom up thing.... and it wasn't going how they had hoped. Plus the revolutionaries that they had supported had turned against them. What had gone wrong?

They hit on the idea that the problem was that the liberal capitalist system was making the poor too happy, and worse in ways they didn't approve of. There were movies, and dance halls.... products were getting cheaper and so, all be it in small ways, the poor were beginning to enjoy enough nibbles of the fruits of capitalism to make them stick with the status quo. This was a disaster.

The theory was that what was happening was that capitalism had all sorts of ways of manipulating the minds of the members of society to make them support the system. Movies, newspapers, education, laws, social norms etc... all of it tended to reinforce the idea that you should want the things that capitalism produced, you should be made happy by those things, you should behave in a way that supported the system. What they very explicitly said was that they needed to gain control of the means by which society was propagandised in order to make them unhappy with it. I think the expression is something like that they needed to make it "taste bitter in their mouths". So to save the poor, the poor needed to be made to feel how unhappy they really were rather than being tricked into thinking they were happy.

There is a whole story about the successes of this group, but I'll not add another thousand words to this. Anyway, theirs is the model of activism and social change that gets adopted by university intellectuals. They are very influential in all of the excitement on campuses in 1968. As economic issues fade into the background everything moves towards groups that are socially oppressed. Their ideas about making the "oppressed" feel their oppression then gets picked up by all these other causes. Today I think the expression you see is that we need to "problematise" something. People are taught to find ways of viewing situations that they would previously have been happy with and understanding how they were actually being oppressed and shout be unhappy and angry.

THE PROBLEM WITH PROBLEMATISING OR SOCIAL MORGELLONS DISEASE
There is a disease called morgellons where the sufferers skin becomes itchy and sensitive. As they scratch it lesions form. Within the lesions they find tiny fibres. They pull the fibres out and the wounds get worse... more fibres. It's entirely psychosomatic. The fibres are from their clothes. The lesions are from the compulsive scratching. It is a form of delusional parasitosis

Intentionally looking at the world through problem glasses where you search for ways that situations can be interpreted in terms of some oppression narrative is like morgellons. Everything can be interpreted as oppressive if you only look hard enough and a good at the game.

Once enough people decide that there is some kind of systemic parasite in society that can be identified by discovering ways in which something can be seen as oppression, you have a feedback loop. As I say, anything can be turned into an example of oppression if you only have the will to interpret in that way. The more you do this, the better you get at finding oppression narratives. The tiny fibres in your skin make you itch so you scratch more and more. Partly I think this comes from an unconstrained vision way of looking at the world where people compare society to some idea of how it should be, and insist that what ever it is can and should be fixed.

Another analogy I sometimes think of is pareidolia - where your brain finds patterns, maybe a face in some random squiggle, where there is none. We are very good at finding patterns in random everyday meaningless events, particularly if we are primed for them.

This obviously isn't to say that there isn't genuine oppression in the world, but I think in the world of microaggressions, maybe we have gone past that.

DIDN'T HE MENTION CAPITALISM SEVERAL PAGES AGO?
The form Capitalism has been in in the west for a long time now is all about globalism. Barriers to trade need to be broken down, whether they are political, legal, cultural whatever.... Differences between nations and peoples needs to be flattened. If different people in different countries like radically different things, it makes everything harder and less efficient. There is a natural desire in capitalism to want to flatten everything out.

Capitalism always has to be moving forward. Capitalism continually needs to grow. It is always hungry. It needs to keep moving into new markets, putting people to work who didn't work before, turning people into consumers who weren't consumers before. Women didn't work, now they work. Some aspect of femininity isn't commercialised so that for a price you can acquire it, not a problem. Capitalism can't not behave in this or it will die.

Again, liberalism is the social ideology that justifies capitalism and allows capitalism to spread.
 
Tell you what - why don't YOU give up your agency and independence and liberty for a decade, be treated as a second-class citizen without the ability to control your own finances, and be entirely dependent on someone else. Then get back to me on this question...


shuttit, if I were to take over all of the assets that you own, and all of your family owns, and your kids, and everyone dear to you; and spend a small part of that amount to lay all of you down and hook you up on permanently on to psychedelic drugs that will keep you happier than how happy you are with the real world.

Now I get it that I have no way to prove that this comatose psychedelic experience will necessarily be all fun and no nightmares; but let's just suppose for the sake of argument that it could be shown that there is some way to ensure that that experience is, in sum, "happier" than our everyday happiness --- or, more to the point, your everyday happiness.

Given the above, would you be fine if I took over not just your assets but also that of everyone dear to you, and without first asking your consent, and hooked you on to this thing for life?

If you answer Yes, then fine, I'll grant you that you're being consistent in how you're viewing this question about women's happiness with how you might view your own. But if you answer No, then I'll have to ask why you're even asking this particular question at all in the first place, about whether women are happier today than before.
 
I am pointing out that as women have become more powerful in the aspects of society feminists wanted them to become powerful in, and as society has been reorganised along the lines feminists wanted.... women have become less happy. As I keep saying, if that isn't sufficient reason for us to question the core assumptions of feminism, what could every happen that would cause us to question them?

You have yet to provide any support for a causal relationship between the idea of females being treated as full citizens with equal rights and agency... and the vague measure of happiness.

You are arguing this from the assumption that feminism has caused a reduction in happiness. But all you've shown is a correlation. The same correlation exists for... color TV, access to long-distance phones, rise of the internet, access to personal vehicles, student loans for higher education, and Korea's development as a nation.

Unless you can provide something other than a hand-wavish "oh feminism..." to support your assertion that feminism causes females to be unhappy, then your entire discussion approach is merely hypothesis.
 
Capitalism always has to be moving forward. Capitalism continually needs to grow. It is always hungry. It needs to keep moving into new markets, putting people to work who didn't work before, turning people into consumers who weren't consumers before. Women didn't work, now they work. Some aspect of femininity isn't commercialised so that for a price you can acquire it, not a problem. Capitalism can't not behave in this or it will die.

Again, liberalism is the social ideology that justifies capitalism and allows capitalism to spread.

Females ALWAYS worked. ALWAYS. They were just unpaid and exploited labor, locked into a specific job role with no choice in the matter.

"Women didn't work". :rolleyes: FFS, have you ever had to clean the house, do the dishes, the shopping, the cooking, the laundry, the planning for the day, AND care for a child? And not merely for a third of your day, but from when you get up to when you go to bed.


ETA: You seem to have missed the roll of Protestantism in the development of both mercantilism and enlightenment.
 

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