Are current renewable energy strategies worth it?

[Dinwar]

Likewise, there are many other alternative sources of energy, but they (like wind) are often limited to specific regions and localities where they can be easily tapped (e.g. Tidal, geothermal, wave, small scale hydro, etc.)

Certain types of geogthermal energy are more widely available. For example, running water underground can be done anywhere with deep enough bedrock (ie, enough soil), and that can reduce the energy necessary to heat or cool a building. They used this sort of tech five to ten years ago in Ohio while building a bunch of new schools. It's not generating energy per say, but it's reducing energy need.

 

[!Kaggen]

When do you need a truck?

When I ask this question of my work colleagues on a trip to Kansas City they insisted it was useful on the weekends when they did any DIY and needed to carry the odd plank back home from the hardware store!!!
What I saw was lots of barbecue grills and cooler boxes on the back of the trucks riding around.
Obviously tailgating drives the US truck market.

 

[Trakar]

Certain types of geogthermal energy are more widely available. For example, running water underground can be done anywhere with deep enough bedrock (ie, enough soil), and that can reduce the energy necessary to heat or cool a building. They used this sort of tech five to ten years ago in Ohio while building a bunch of new schools. It's not generating energy per say, but it's reducing energy need.

Are you talking ground-linked heat-pump systems, or power generation? You can get either one virtually anywhere,...you just have to drill deeper in some places than in others.

 

[Dinwar]

Ground-linked heat-pump systems. As I said, it doesn't generate power, but it helps reduce the need for power. At least, that's the argument the engineers made at the time.

 

[Trakar]

When I ask this question of my work colleagues on a trip to Kansas City they insisted it was useful on the weekends when they did any DIY and needed to carry the odd plank back home from the hardware store!!!
What I saw was lots of barbecue grills and cooler boxes on the back of the trucks riding around.
Obviously tailgating drives the US truck market.

Hey,

for some of us,

that is a serious consideration,

especially in the fall,

...early winter if you're lucky,

....Go 'Hawks!!

 

[macdoc]

Originally Posted by Cuddles View Post

I really have no idea what you two think you're arguing with here

.
Grid stability.

Do you agree that we are able to build wind turbines and solar panels that produce electricity with current technology?

yes

Do you agree that given enough money we could build any arbitrary number of them?

yes

f yes to both of those questions, then you agree that we could power the entire world solely on renewables with current technology.

no

Not without a smart grid which IS current technology but would cost about 3/4 trillion dollars in North America to build.

Renewables should be able to meet at least 20 percent of electricity demand without disrupting the grid just about anywhere in the world with good grid planning and management. As geothermal and marine power technologies mature, they will become a much less intermittent, natural substitute for the baseload technologies of the past. A host of other technologies will even out the bumps in renewable generation by adding storage (batteries for distributed storage, and pumped hydro and solar thermal for utility scale); increasing the connections between grids (allowing better transmission between sunny and cloudy, or windy and still areas); and transitioning to on-demand natural gas-fired peaking generators. Over the next decade, the current assumptions about the need for traditional baseload capacity will begin to fade as new storage, interconnection, and smart grid management strategies come into play, and ultimately, a combination of these technologies might raise the limit on renewables to 100 percent.

http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/the-energy-futurist/why-baseload-power-is-doomed/

Key word is "ultimately" and "might"

You are over simplifying the problem by not taking into account grid issues and the need for a stable and controllable supply of electricity.

Grid managers have to be able to match power to demand.Short sentence...very large implications.

 

[macdoc]

This is a good article showing the transition and it's perils...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25674581

You cannot just shift an industrial society to renewables. There is far more to be done before that can occur and still offer reliable industrial and city level power.

Much can be gained by both renewables and efficiency within the existing systems as the transition occurs.

Staying away from any new coal plants and closing the worst of the old ones is priority one.
In Ontario we are closing the last of the coal plants this year, down from 25% of our power just a decade ago.
It was the single largest CO2 emitter in North America and is a feather in the provinces cap.
But electricity prices are rising. Some mishandling of subsidies have not helped ( that's teh biggest issue in many jurisdictions )

 

[lauwersw]

Thanks all for the truck comments. Obviously I'm thinking a little too much from an urban environment. For construction and farming people over here use heavy 4x4's as well, but that's clearly not what the majority of the trucks is used for. But hey, who am I to comment on that? In Belgium over 60% of the cars are pesky particulate spitting Diesels...

 

[macdoc]

Diesels under the Euro zone regulations are pretty clean even regarding particulates.

The issue is never with remote and industrial vehicles....tho some could use some tech updates if only for efficiency....it's urban traffic. One person per vehicle etc that is the lower hanging fruit to deal with.
Short range electrics and delivery vehicles, hybrids for longer ranges ....hey everywhere I go it's hybrids for taxis.
some 300 million EVs are in use globally and growing.

Heavy vehicles will take some time but hell there is a green locomotive

http://www.greenrailnews.com

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Diesel electric locomotives have been around for quite a while, proving the effectiveness of combining high density energy storage with high torque motors. Most locos use big resistor banks for braking, dumping velocity as heat rather than recapturing it as regenerative braking, but now some are made that don't even have resistor banks.

The biggest problem with internal combustion engines in general is that even today over 75% of the heat of combustion is thrown out the exhaust pipe.

 

[macdoc]

Yeah regeneration tech is going to a big thing....if some actually gets super caps effective that will make a big difference.

This is a cool movie and shows how fast electric tech is moving forward

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/charge_2013/

Fun watch too.

 

[Trakar]

Diesel electric locomotives have been around for quite a while, proving the effectiveness of combining high density energy storage with high torque motors. Most locos use big resistor banks for braking, dumping velocity as heat rather than recapturing it as regenerative braking, but now some are made that don't even have resistor banks.

The biggest problem with internal combustion engines in general is that even today over 75% of the heat of combustion is thrown out the exhaust pipe.

Agreed, efficiency issues may actually be larger than CO2 release for some systems, particularly with fuel cells, where carbon capture is much easier.

 

[macdoc]

The biggest problem with internal combustion engines in general is that even today over 75% of the heat of combustion is thrown out the exhaust pipe.

That is one argument for electric cars.
Their efficiency is dependent on the source of the electricity ie - high tech coal is likely a more efficient use of fossil fuel than individual cars if we had to choose the lesser evil.

In addition EVs can recapture where ICE cannot.

The other aspect is EV is a very good use of personal renewables - one guy in the ice storm used his hybrid for power.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

That is one argument for electric cars.
Their efficiency is dependent on the source of the electricity ie - high tech coal is likely a more efficient use of fossil fuel than individual cars if we had to choose the lesser evil.

In addition EVs can recapture where ICE cannot.

The other aspect is EV is a very good use of personal renewables - one guy in the ice storm used his hybrid for power.

During the "The Gulf War" I became interested in ev and read a bunch of thick books full of math I still don't understand. One of them had an entire chapter on how much more efficient it would be to burn gasoline for steam turbines, send the output through power lines and store it in lead-acid batteries in cars, including all the losses. That's how bad the efficiency of IC engines really is. We've improved engines quite a bit since the mid-70's when the book was written, but the reality is you can't let the piston of a car slowdown relative to the rest of the engine so the expanding gasses get dumped with a lot of potential work left in.

One way of implementing hybrid vehicles is to use the ICE at it's most efficient RPM/load range, as a generator only. But still, a reciprocating-piston ICE throws away usable heat. No getting around it.

 

[macdoc]

One way of implementing hybrid vehicles is to use the ICE at it's most efficient RPM/load range, as a generator only. But still, a reciprocating-piston ICE throws away usable heat. No getting around it.

Yes ala The Volt and others.
Still - VW has a 200 mpg road worthy diesel now and it's not a concept car
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...not-a-concept-car-2013-geneva-motor-show.html

Wonder why small turbines are not suitable - guess it's not single vehicle adaptable and my fry the kidlings out the back

 

[Trakar]

Yes ala The Volt and others.
Still - VW has a 200 mpg road worthy diesel now and it's not a concept car
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...not-a-concept-car-2013-geneva-motor-show.html

Wonder why small turbines are not suitable - guess it's not single vehicle adaptable and my fry the kidlings out the back

Actually, the small turbine design is not a tremendous problem, they just require a bit more engineering than ICEs and we've never really mass-produced small gas-turbine generators. I'm sure it could be done, but until there is a reasonable expectation that such a project is going to be funded, it isn't going to move much beyond proof-of-concept displays.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_C-X75

 

[macdoc]

IN the wet blanket category of articles...a grim reminder of realities from Sci-Am

Wind and solar can contribute to the base load, but they alone cannot supply all of it, because the wind does not always blow, the sun is down at night and that supply cannot be predicted reliably. In countries such as Germany, where renewables have already grown substantially, wind and solar may supply anywhere from a negligible amount to roughly half of all demand during certain sunny and windy hours. These large fluctuations require backup from other power plants, typically coal- or gas-fired, or increased electricity imports. In Germany, all this variability can cause serious disruptions in electricity flow for some neighboring countries.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...tion-to-renewable-energy-is-wishful-thinking/

It's a good read...that said fairly rapid changes can be made as some nations are showing but it costs - even here in Ontario with abundant nukes and hydro facilities closing the last coal plant and ramping up wind and solar has led to sharp increases in electricity cost tho I always think smart use can keep that down.

There is a base amount that is cheap and then doing heavy use things off hours is half the price of peak.

 

[macdoc]

came across this

I'm interested in these mini-nukes - I love to host one in the back yard and provide power for the neighborhood.

If anything ever begged for a small collective form of activity this would seem ideal.

But I need to understand more the technology and limitations.

On the plus side, the overall trend for the growth of nuclear power around the world is positive, with a very aggressive construction schedule in China, and ongoing construction projects or plans in a number of other countries. In the United States, several construction projects continue to be active, and good progress was made during the past year.

Another positive sign is the continued interest in advanced designs, particularly Small Modular Reactors (SMRs) that could expand the market for nuclear power in a number of directions--to smaller grids and smaller markets, for remote applications, and in places where the water supply is limited. The interest, which has been building for several years, passed a milestone in 2013 with awards from the Department of Energy for two light water designs.

Interest also continues on non-light water designs that would offer many of the same benefits as light-water SMRs, plus additional benefits, such as suitability for high-temperature industrial applications.

http://nukepowertalk.blogspot.ca/2014/01/nuclear-power-in-2013-and-2014.html

If we could make electricity as pervasive as the internet then maybe some aspects of urban sprawl could be avoided. I suspect there is far more going on in that "remote work" demographic than is charted as much may be disguised as retirement when in fact like me people are choosing remote places and just continuing to telecommute.

Here is a popular science view of the potential of small nukes.

Feature: Small modular nuclear reactors - the future of energy?

By David Szondy

February 16, 2012

http://www.gizmag.com/small-modular-nuclear-reactors/20860/

hah I didn't know this

Germany, for example, decided to abandon nuclear power completely in favor of alternative energy, but then the severe winter of 2011-12 got so cold that the Danube was freezing and Berlin had to put some of the mothballed reactors back into service.

maybe we an ice age instead of AGW to get the nuclear ball rolling again Even one on Antarctic was in use for 10 years.

One reason for government and private industry to take an interest in SMRs is that they've been successfully employed for much longer than most people realize. In fact, hundreds have been steaming around the world inside the hulls of nuclear submarines and other warships for sixty years. They've also been used in merchant ships, icebreakers and as research and medical isotope reactors at universities. There was even one installed in the Antarctic at McMurdo Station from 1962 to 1972. Now they're being considered for domestic use.

There is a small heavy water reactor in a leafy neighbourhood in Hamilton Ontario doing exemplary work since the 50s.
You can even watch the Cerenkov radiation by standing above the pool of heavy water.

he McMaster Nuclear Reactor (MNR) began operating in 1959 as the first university-based research reactor in the British Commonwealth. More than 50 years later, MNR remains an integral part of the value chain of a number of industries, providing an array of services which would not otherwise be readily available to our stakeholders. Perhaps most notably, MNR is one of the world’s largest suppliers of the medical radioisotope iodine-125 which is used for the treatment of prostate cancer.

http://mnr.mcmaster.ca


A world of nukes small and large and appropriate renewables where it makes sense would certainly be fresher than the current rather noisome one in too many parts.

I'd be happy if coal use was a distant memory akin to whale oil.

 

[Garrison]

Article at the BBC on new technology that could address the issue of the intermittent nature of so many renewables:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25674738

This is at the heart of making renewables viable; being able to economically store the energy produced and release it when you actually need it. Of course I still think we're going to need nuclear to meet our needs even if this new flow battery tech pans out.

 

[Mikemcc]

The idea of small fail-safe nuclear reactors really is very, very old hat. We've been using them in submarines for decades! There was even one right in the heart of London for years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JASON_reactor