• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Are atheists inevitably pessimists?

JoeMorgue said:
There's a... *pause for dramatic effect* dying child in front of you but he wants to hear how there isn't an afterlife or... whatever.
Click to expand...
When I am dying I want to hear how the world is becoming a better place and my friends are enjoying it. That will be enough for me. But if the world is becoming a worse place and they aren't happy then I shall be very sad. Who would want to die knowing that the world around them is turning to ****?

Theists have it all wrong. The real afterlife is the world that exists after 'you' are gone. That is why we should strive to create a better future even when we won't be in it.
 
theprestige said:
I dunno about invariably, but a lot of atheists seem to be misanthropes, which is a form of pessimism.
Click to expand...

Misanthropy
Misanthropy is the general hatred, dislike, distrust or contempt of the human species, human behavior or human nature...

The major flaws pointed out by misanthropes include intellectual flaws, moral flaws and aesthetic flaws. Intellectual flaws, like wishful thinking, dogmatism, stupidity and cognitive biases, are what leads to false beliefs, what obstructs knowledge, or what violates the demands of rationality. Moral flaws, like cruelty, indifference to the suffering of others, selfishness and cowardice, are often identified with tendencies to promote what is bad or with inappropriate attitudes towards values.
Click to expand...

Let me think... who here is constantly harping on about people having intellectual and moral flaws?

Resume said:
A single data point.
Click to expand...
I don't believe theprestige identifies as an atheist, so despite the correlation...
 
Point is the temptation to lie to a dying child sort of betrays the belief that religious people do tend to be less pessimistic.

Some question whether we are happier now than in the stone age, and there's much to be said for the social cohesion, regular exercise, and probable lower social stress of small groups back in the day. A social support group is powerful for our stress management, and religious Americans may take comfort from hearing stats like 70 percent of the country still identifying as Christian in one form or another, or that the congregation is going to "pray for your recovery." This is something most people of faith do not have to go actively looking for; they are born into the network.

Atheists may become discouraged from simply hearing that 70 percent or more of the country may be hostile to their stance. And knowing that you are in a comfortable majority could certainly quell some pessimism.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Why does the "woULd U liE tO ComFURT DA DYING BABEY!?" routine only get pointed at atheists?

There's a... *pause for dramatic effect* dying child in front of you but he wants to hear how there isn't an afterlife or wants to hear about how he's going to be reincarnated or be told he's going to die and go to ******* Hogwarts or whatever.
Click to expand...

Now, now - you know very well someone imposing their religious beliefs on a dying person is them being compassionate, caring and kind and should be praised...
 
MarkCorrigan said:
I suspect it is because to the fundamentally weak willed, death as an end is "horrible" whereas an afterlife is comforting. Despite the fact that the afterlife systems of pretty much all world religions are, in my view, even more horrifying. Especially those with a concept of hell.
Click to expand...


I wonder about the twisted minds that come up Hell as a concept.

I can see it as an excellent draw card for religious observation however. Selling eternal punishment as a consequence of non compliance, is much more compelling, than eternal bliss as a reward.
 
Thor 2 said:
I wonder about the twisted minds that come up Hell as a concept.

I can see it as an excellent draw card for religious observation however. Selling eternal punishment as a consequence of non compliance, is much more compelling, than eternal bliss as a reward.
Click to expand...

The many churches that label themselves Christians have and still do have many different descriptions of hell. The "brimstone and fire" description is pulled from a surprisingly few bible passages so there isn't a full biblical description. What the various sects tend to have in common is that hell is a separation from god for all eternity, you didn't "bow your knee" to him so he says "**** you". He really isn't a very nice god.
 
Venom said:
Yes my point is the that's the only thing you can count on as an atheist. So for someone with a more transcendent view of the world, it's worth asking whether they aren't more optimistic about life on average. Look at some of the posters in this very thread who said they'd lie to a dying child in order to keep them comfortable.
Click to expand...

You could make the same argument about telling a dying child that Santa is coming.

You still seem to be making an assumption that religious beliefs about an afterlife are the only way to feel good about life. Atheists may not believe in an eternity of bliss, or divine reciprocity, but that doesn't mean they can't feel good, on balance, about existence. I don't need to think that I'll get to continue conscious awareness after death, or that when children are brutalized that it's all part of God's ineffable plan in order to find joy and wonder in just being alive. I don't think it's pessimism to acknowledge that the universe wasn't created just for us, and that it's up to us to to try to make life as good as we can for ourselves and others.

I don't think the only alternative to fantasy is pessimism, and I don't think that being realistic about the fragility and impermanence of our existence is any more pessimistic than not believing that Santa Clause gives toys to all the children of the world on Christmas Eve.
 
Also I don't know why the hypothetical person in the scenario is a child instead of an adult demanding to be lied to so they feel better other than for pure emotional manipulation.
 
Also if you don't lie to your kids and tell them they are going to live forever in the sky with the big giant sky wizard, I wouldn't be hurting their feelings by not playing along so...
 
When I'm dying, it might be nice to have an accomplished liar tell me I'm not dying.

I'm not sure it's necessarily a worse experience for a child to sense they are dying than for an adult, but it's probably worse for those around them. When you think of the example of a dying child, is that a particularly extreme case due to their distress or to your distress at theirs?
 
I've also said in the past that "Dying Child" thing is a trap question.

We say no, we're cruel and heartless.

We say yes and "Aha! That means you don't really have conviction in your opinion!"

It's basically just a 3rd person version of "So and so famous atheist really recanted on his deathbed no for realizies it totes happened" thing.
 
Last edited:
Foster Zygote said:
You still seem to be making an assumption that religious beliefs about an afterlife are the only way to feel good about life. Atheists may not believe in an eternity of bliss, or divine reciprocity, but that doesn't mean they can't feel good, on balance, about existence. I don't need to think that I'll get to continue conscious awareness after death, or that when children are brutalized that it's all part of God's ineffable plan in order to find joy and wonder in just being alive. I don't think it's pessimism to acknowledge that the universe wasn't created just for us, and that it's up to us to to try to make life as good as we can for ourselves and others.
Click to expand...

Not the only way. But it sure is damn helpful given the social support network you are often born into as a person of faith.

Foster Zygote said:
I don't think the only alternative to fantasy is pessimism, and I don't think that being realistic about the fragility and impermanence of our existence is any more pessimistic than not believing that Santa Clause gives toys to all the children of the world on Christmas Eve.
Click to expand...

Santa isn't in the business of granting life after death. And rationalizing our existence to that level isn't easy. Not everyone, I'll risk saying very few people, takes the time to study science or scrutinize their faith to that point.

But I think I've moved slightly away from the OP and I'll leave it at that. I think atheists tend to be more pessimistic than religious people. I don't believe that inevitably they are pessimists.
 
Venom said:
Not the only way. But it sure is damn helpful given the social support network you are often born into as a person of faith.
Click to expand...
Growing up among evangelical Christians, I found that the closest and most significant people in my social support network were my friends and family. The same has been true since I realized I was an atheist. Religious congregations aren't the only social networks for care and support. I don't need to have hundreds of people I'm really only acquainted with telling me they're praying for me to feel supported. I've found that even a handful of loved ones (or even one) can make all the difference.

And please note that an atheists social support network most likely isn't going to consist entirely of other atheists. It's not as though, as an atheist, you can only associate with atheists. Atheism isn't A belief, it's a lack of belief in one concept. Atheists can still associate with whomever they wish.

Santa isn't in the business of granting life after death. And rationalizing our existence to that level isn't easy. Not everyone, I'll risk saying very few people, takes the time to study science or scrutinize their faith to that point.

But I think I've moved slightly away from the OP and I'll leave it at that. I think atheists tend to be more pessimistic than religious people. I don't believe that inevitably they are pessimists.
Click to expand...
Fair enough. But for my part I still think you're wrong because you're conflating realism with pessimism. Just because I don't believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden doesn't mean I don't think it's beautiful. In fact, I think the universe that science has revealed to us is orders of magnitude more beautiful and emotionally satisfying than any of the magical delusions of most supernatural religions.
 
We're just taking a (very) roundabout way to yet another tired cliche about how if you don't believe in nonsense you live a life with no joy.
 
JoeMorgue said:
We're just taking a (very) roundabout way to yet another tired cliche about how if you don't believe in nonsense you live a life with no joy.
Click to expand...

I half expect to be told that I reject God because I hate my father. (We're quite close, for the record.)
 
If somebody convinced me that there's an eternal life after death, in heaven or hell or Topeka or wherever, I might go mad. Mad from horrible pessimism. Myup.

Let's hear some religious believer in the afterlife speak up: Do you really, can you really, want to live FOREVER? From everlasting to everlasting, without end, without hope? Have you ever even given that prospect serious thought?

This business of an unending afterlife comes up from time to time on the forum. Yes, pretty often I'm the one who brings it to the table, because I'm yet to hear any response from religionistas better than sputtering and harrumphing.

Will this time be different?
 
No. Next question.

Well, to give a fuller explanation, I am actually a believer (of a kind) and I have (realistic) faith: in science and progress. There is no heaven and at the moment in conditions of scarcity the humanity is behaving quite like rats with too little food. But we have the potential to overcome this misery - through science and intelligence. We have a very real chance of emerging from primitive conditions to enlightenment and universal comfort and wealth.
 
Last edited:
theprestige said:
I confess I haven't encountered a lot of "out and proud" atheists outside this forum. But every one of them seems to harbor a characteristic disdain, if not outright hatred for their fellow man.
Click to expand...

Whereas I've met hundreds of "out and proud" atheists, from all walks of life, outside of this forum, all of whom harbored nothing but good will towards their fellow humans.

Sadly the religious mono maniacs have always been the opposite.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom