Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion - continuation thread

If I recall correctly (been a few years since I read the article) what he received was the signal from Armstrong's suit, specifically.

Correct. The way Apollo surface communications worked, the VHF frequencies were arranged such that the suits acted in a sort of daisy-chain. The LM VHF transceiver only received on one frequency (the commander's) and transmitted on a single different frequency. The commander's suit radio relayed the other astronauts' transmissions on the master VHF frequencies. The LM converted between the VHF traffic and the Unified S-Band signal it used for communicating to Earth via MSFN.

If you knew the LM's master receiver frequency (i.e., the frequency Armstrong's suit transmitted on), you could certainly tune your own radio and receive both Armstrong's and Aldrin's (relayed) voice transmissions.

Somebody at Apollohoax forum did a signal to noise ratio analysis and found the levels of his recordings were indeed correct for that small of a signal received by that size of antenna.

Almost certainly KA9Q, whose professional expertise is in radio systems, especially link budgets.
 
I recall watching that film The Dish which had a scene with the security guard picking up Armstrong's transmission in his transistor radio, I wandered if that was possible at the time and now I know it was.
 
I recall watching that film The Dish which had a scene with the security guard picking up Armstrong's transmission in his transistor radio, I wandered if that was possible at the time and now I know it was.

I haven't seen the film to know the specifics but receiving an 11 watt signal from a quarter million miles away needs a bigger antenna than you can put in your pocket. Handheld radio antennas are omnidirectional, receiving signal equally from all directions. And you need to have a radio that can tune to the correct frequency. An AM radio for the US broadcast region wouldn't do it, but I think other parts of the world use some of those VHF bands for broadcasting. In the US the frequencies the suits used were in aviation bands IIRC.
 
I haven't seen the film to know the specifics but receiving an 11 watt signal from a quarter million miles away needs a bigger antenna than you can put in your pocket. Handheld radio antennas are omnidirectional, receiving signal equally from all directions. And you need to have a radio that can tune to the correct frequency. An AM radio for the US broadcast region wouldn't do it, but I think other parts of the world use some of those VHF bands for broadcasting. In the US the frequencies the suits used were in aviation bands IIRC.

I saw a conspiracy theorist express doubt that they could receive a 7 Watt TV signal from a quarter million miles away. I pointed out that radio telescopes can detect quasars that amount to about one quadrillionth of a Watt.
 
The antenna on the space suits were omnidirectional, and with clear line of sight and no terrain scattering between the earth and the moon a sufficiently large very directional antenna will have no problem pulling some amount of signal out of the noise floor. And Baysinger's recorded signal is barely above the noise floor and not "usable" in any professional sense of the term. But as an amateur radio experiment it's pretty darn awesome.
 
Of course it's pretty darn awesome. Keep in mind that these suit transceivers were not meant to provide a clear signal for more than a couple hundred meters. In the early missions the LM was the relay. In the later missions the lunar rover was the communications relay. The astronauts never strayed very far from these relays, or from each other.

By international convention we publish the radio frequencies we use for space missions so that other spacefarers won't use similar frequencies and thus cause interference. But naturally this means you can't hide any radio transmissions you plan to make. The Soviets picked the S-band signals, but then they had much better equipment. But Baysinger wasn't just some clueless backyard tinkerer. He had previous experience tracking satellites and doing basic radio astronomy. Not every ham could have done this, so it's not a necessary thing to mimic in a hoax.

But Baysinger nevertheless did get usable voice signals from the Moon in a way that no one anticipated was possible. That's important for the question because now you have to ask why NASA went so far as to fake the VHF suit signals such that they could be determined, by persons unknown, to have come from the Moon, when they weren't expected to propagate usefully beyond a few hundred meters. Many theories have proposed the need to intercept the S-band signal for "independent" verification, but not the VHF signals. Here's a guy who put NASA to a test that even learned people today are surprised to hear was possible.
 
But Baysinger nevertheless did get usable voice signals from the Moon in a way that no one anticipated was possible. That's important for the question because now you have to ask why NASA went so far as to fake the VHF suit signals such that they could be determined, by persons unknown, to have come from the Moon, when they weren't expected to propagate usefully beyond a few hundred meters. Many theories have proposed the need to intercept the S-band signal for "independent" verification, but not the VHF signals. Here's a guy who put NASA to a test that even learned people today are surprised to hear was possible.

Yes! I like it, yet more solid information refuting the conspiracists. Good work!

Wake up Sheeple! Do your research! It's a well known fact that Larry Baysinger and Stanley Kubrick were close personal friends. Kubrick hired Baysinger to produce those noisy clips to further the hoax.

:jshark
 
If you knew the LM's master receiver frequency (i.e., the frequency Armstrong's suit transmitted on), you could certainly tune your own radio and receive both Armstrong's and Aldrin's (relayed) voice transmissions.

I have a stupid question. It's not about voice transmissions. Were the instrument data transmissions from USA space missions encoded in anyway? I was wondering if the USA or Russia tried to prevent each other listening in to data from the spaceships?

If I was a very naughty Russian in the 60's could I send false instructions back to an American spaceship to cause problems? ( I haven't got a clue how this works but I was wondering simply because it reasonably may have been a consideration back then.)
 
I have a stupid question. It's not about voice transmissions. Were the instrument data transmissions from USA space missions encoded in anyway? I was wondering if the USA or Russia tried to prevent each other listening in to data from the spaceships?

If I was a very naughty Russian in the 60's could I send false instructions back to an American spaceship to cause problems? ( I haven't got a clue how this works but I was wondering simply because it reasonably may have been a consideration back then.)

Possible with digital comm of course, but in the 60s???

Radar has had IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) since the early days of the Brits trying to determine which radar returns were their own aircraft and which were the German planes. Not sure if that had application in comm, I don't think so. Coded wording and radio silence were afaik, the only countermeasures.

ETA: concerning your mischievous scenario though. Since NASA would also be able to hear the fake Russian broadcasts they could send a code word alerting the Apollo crews to the situation which might entail changing frequencies to a predetermined setting. First broadcast from NASA is one frequency, which changes with every push to talk. The schedule of changing freqs under this protocol being top secret. Not to mention that such chicanery would be outed by the USA to the world. Very bad publicity for the USSR.
 
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Were the instrument data transmissions from USA space missions encoded in anyway?

I think you mean to ask if they were encrypted. Encoding means to represent abstract data using the underlying tokens of whatever transport or recording mechanism is available. For example, the Roman alphabet's upper-case letter 'A' is encoded under the ASCII convention as the binary value 0x41 (expressed in hexadecimal notation). Other computer encodings exist for alphabetic letters, such as Unicode and EBCDIC.

Apollo telemetry was encoded in the sense that measurements were recorded in the Apollo computer's native numerical format (15-bit 1's-complement integers) or software-defined compositions such as double-precision vectors. Then those digitally-encoded values were rendered in a data structure ("telemetry frame") which was then further encoded for radio transmission via pulse-code modulation (PCM). That encodes the bit values onto the S-band radio frequency, although that particular kind of encoding is called modulation -- the shaping of a radio waveform to express information.

Ditto in reverse for the command uplink. The data transfer rate was typically 2400 bits per second.

Modulation is necessary to any electronic method of communication. Encoding is necessary to any method of digital communication or storage.

In contrast, encryption is a transformation on data designed to hide the information from unauthorized examination. All encryption is encoding, but not all encoding is encryption.

Encryption is optional. But if you don't understand the encoding scheme then it's as good as encrypted. I can invent a new scheme for mapping letters to binary values in a computer, and if no one else understands or uses my method, then text stored by that method digitally in a computer is effectively also encrypted. (Substitution ciphers work that way.)

Apollo telemetry downlinks and command uplinks were not encrypted. The modulation (PCM) was an international standard, so demodulating the S-band signal to a digital bit stream was straightforward. Interpreting the bit stream as its logical telemetry values takes a bit more effort. The number of ways instrument measurement values can be structured and serialized as a bit stream is functionally infinite, so some foreknowledge of what those bits meant would have been needed.

I was wondering if the USA or Russia tried to prevent each other listening in to data from the spaceships?

No. Protection from eavesdropping was not a high priority goal compared to simplicity and reliability of communications. The Soviets seem to have felt the same way since at the time they did not encrypt their digital communications. In fact, some of their early space probes sent back photographs encoded as telefacsimile images, easily interpreted by third parties.

If I was a very naughty Russian in the 60's could I send false instructions back to an American spaceship to cause problems?

Yes, in theory.

I haven't got a clue how this works but I was wondering simply because it reasonably may have been a consideration back then.

The uplink method was simple and elegant. You may be familiar with the DSKY panel in the spacecraft which controlled the computer. It had a numerical keypad and a few functional keys. The syntax for a command would be to press the VERB button, enter the number of a predefined verb (e.g., 15 for "show on the display") the NOUN button followed by a noun number (e.g., 68 on the lunar for "descent rate information") and ENTER. Each physical key on the DSKY was represented in the command parser program (named PINBALL) by a number. A string of those numbers constituted a command to the computer to do something, such as stop or start a program, show information, or operate the spacecraft's navigation and propulsion systems.

Commands uplinked from the ground were simply expressed in the same format, as the codes for DSKY keys. It's as if the ground controllers had their own virtual keypad and the key codes were sent up on the uplink channel where they would go into PINBALL exactly as if they had been entered on the spacecraft control panel. PINBALL would then interpret and dispatch those commands without regard to where they came from.

The command and lunar modules used the same computer hardware and much of the same computer software. The noun-verb command syntax was the same, but each spacecraft used different verbs and nouns. The keypads were shaped differently, but had the same function.

A nefarious Soviet agent with access to an S-band transmitter, comparable digital encoding methods, and a big antenna could send to the lunar module the codes for the key sequence

VERB 40 NOUN 22 ENTER​

which would reset the inertial references and cause the spacecraft to lose its orientation. Or a well-timed

VERB 34 ENTER 64 ENTER​

would stop the program controlling the LM's descent. (However, for some critical programs such as P63, a watchdog restarts it.) Or if you wanted to be really frakkin' devious:

VERB 21 NOUN 02 ENTER 00413 ENTER +00001 ENTER​

This insidious bit of mischief tells the lunar module that it has landed (it honestly has no other way of knowing), thereby inhibiting engine firings, RCS activities, etc. Not something you want to do in flight. Basically certain functions of the lunar module would just go dead and the astronauts probably wouldn't be able to figure out why in time. But on the post-landing audio when you hear Buzz Aldrin say, "Four-thirteen is in," he's confirming to Armstrong that he has "safed" the spacecraft after a successful landing. That's when you're supposed to use that command.

But here's the safety pin. The pilots had to agree to allow ground control via this method. They have to reach over to the communications control panel and switch the UPLINK TELEMETRY mode switch to ACCEPT. Unless the switch is in that position, the computer will not accept keystroke codes from the ground. And typically the switch was not in that position.

When was that ever used?

Well, on Apollo 14 they discovered that the computer believed the ABORT button was being pressed. The button, among other things, set a bit in the computer memory that several computer programs consulted to determine what they should do. The pilots determined that the switch itself was faulty -- by setting the computer to display the contents of that memory location and tapping the control panel until the bit cleared to zero. Likely a blob of solder was trapped in the switch body and was floating about inside making intermittent contact.

So to keep that faulty switch from spuriously signaling an abort, Don Eyles (the software guru at MIT who basically programmed the whole lunar module) figured out within a couple of hours how to patch the software to ignore the button unless the pilots also took additional action. Then, before the spacecraft went behind the Moon and lost radio contact, uploaded the new program by means of keystroke commands that "poked" the new machine instructions into an unused piece of erasable memory and told the computer to use that instead. To do that, Ed Mitchell in the LM had to flip the switch to let Eyles do that from the ground. Otherwise the communications decoders on the LM would have been prevented from loading those keystroke codes into PINBALL's input buffer.

The rest is history.

So while it was theoretically possible to sabotage the Apollo spacecraft, it was impractical and politically inadvisable. Space law at the time was basically maritime law. The Apollo spacecraft were officially US-flagged vessels operating on the "high seas." As sovereign vessels on the high seas, sabotaging them would effectively be, under international law, an act either of piracy or of war. The desire of the Soviet Union to do that would be commensurate to their desire to attack a U.S. Navy warship.

The current incarnation of the MSFN and Deep Space networks allow for encryption.
 
I think you mean to ask if they were encrypted. Encoding means to represent abstract data using the underlying tokens of whatever transport or recording mechanism is available. For example, the Roman alphabet's upper-case letter 'A' is encoded under the ASCII convention as the binary value 0x41 (expressed in hexadecimal notation). Other computer encodings exist for alphabetic letters, such as Unicode and EBCDIC.

Apollo telemetry was encoded in the sense that measurements were recorded in the Apollo computer's native numerical format (15-bit 1's-complement integers) or software-defined compositions such as double-precision vectors. Then those digitally-encoded values were rendered in a data structure ("telemetry frame") which was then further encoded for radio transmission via pulse-code modulation (PCM). That encodes the bit values onto the S-band radio frequency, although that particular kind of encoding is called modulation -- the shaping of a radio waveform to express information.

Ditto in reverse for the command uplink. The data transfer rate was typically 2400 bits per second.

Modulation is necessary to any electronic method of communication. Encoding is necessary to any method of digital communication or storage.

In contrast, encryption is a transformation on data designed to hide the information from unauthorized examination. All encryption is encoding, but not all encoding is encryption.

Encryption is optional. But if you don't understand the encoding scheme then it's as good as encrypted. I can invent a new scheme for mapping letters to binary values in a computer, and if no one else understands or uses my method, then text stored by that method digitally in a computer is effectively also encrypted. (Substitution ciphers work that way.)

Apollo telemetry downlinks and command uplinks were not encrypted. The modulation (PCM) was an international standard, so demodulating the S-band signal to a digital bit stream was straightforward. Interpreting the bit stream as its logical telemetry values takes a bit more effort. The number of ways instrument measurement values can be structured and serialized as a bit stream is functionally infinite, so some foreknowledge of what those bits meant would have been needed.



No. Protection from eavesdropping was not a high priority goal compared to simplicity and reliability of communications. The Soviets seem to have felt the same way since at the time they did not encrypt their digital communications. In fact, some of their early space probes sent back photographs encoded as telefacsimile images, easily interpreted by third parties.



Yes, in theory.



The uplink method was simple and elegant. You may be familiar with the DSKY panel in the spacecraft which controlled the computer. It had a numerical keypad and a few functional keys. The syntax for a command would be to press the VERB button, enter the number of a predefined verb (e.g., 15 for "show on the display") the NOUN button followed by a noun number (e.g., 68 on the lunar for "descent rate information") and ENTER. Each physical key on the DSKY was represented in the command parser program (named PINBALL) by a number. A string of those numbers constituted a command to the computer to do something, such as stop or start a program, show information, or operate the spacecraft's navigation and propulsion systems.

Commands uplinked from the ground were simply expressed in the same format, as the codes for DSKY keys. It's as if the ground controllers had their own virtual keypad and the key codes were sent up on the uplink channel where they would go into PINBALL exactly as if they had been entered on the spacecraft control panel. PINBALL would then interpret and dispatch those commands without regard to where they came from.

The command and lunar modules used the same computer hardware and much of the same computer software. The noun-verb command syntax was the same, but each spacecraft used different verbs and nouns. The keypads were shaped differently, but had the same function.

A nefarious Soviet agent with access to an S-band transmitter, comparable digital encoding methods, and a big antenna could send to the lunar module the codes for the key sequence

VERB 40 NOUN 22 ENTER​

which would reset the inertial references and cause the spacecraft to lose its orientation. Or a well-timed

VERB 34 ENTER 64 ENTER​

would stop the program controlling the LM's descent. (However, for some critical programs such as P63, a watchdog restarts it.) Or if you wanted to be really frakkin' devious:

VERB 21 NOUN 02 ENTER 00413 ENTER +00001 ENTER​

This insidious bit of mischief tells the lunar module that it has landed (it honestly has no other way of knowing), thereby inhibiting engine firings, RCS activities, etc. Not something you want to do in flight. Basically certain functions of the lunar module would just go dead and the astronauts probably wouldn't be able to figure out why in time. But on the post-landing audio when you hear Buzz Aldrin say, "Four-thirteen is in," he's confirming to Armstrong that he has "safed" the spacecraft after a successful landing. That's when you're supposed to use that command.

But here's the safety pin. The pilots had to agree to allow ground control via this method. They have to reach over to the communications control panel and switch the UPLINK TELEMETRY mode switch to ACCEPT. Unless the switch is in that position, the computer will not accept keystroke codes from the ground. And typically the switch was not in that position.

When was that ever used?

Well, on Apollo 14 they discovered that the computer believed the ABORT button was being pressed. The button, among other things, set a bit in the computer memory that several computer programs consulted to determine what they should do. The pilots determined that the switch itself was faulty -- by setting the computer to display the contents of that memory location and tapping the control panel until the bit cleared to zero. Likely a blob of solder was trapped in the switch body and was floating about inside making intermittent contact.

So to keep that faulty switch from spuriously signaling an abort, Don Eyles (the software guru at MIT who basically programmed the whole lunar module) figured out within a couple of hours how to patch the software to ignore the button unless the pilots also took additional action. Then, before the spacecraft went behind the Moon and lost radio contact, uploaded the new program by means of keystroke commands that "poked" the new machine instructions into an unused piece of erasable memory and told the computer to use that instead. To do that, Ed Mitchell in the LM had to flip the switch to let Eyles do that from the ground. Otherwise the communications decoders on the LM would have been prevented from loading those keystroke codes into PINBALL's input buffer.

The rest is history.

So while it was theoretically possible to sabotage the Apollo spacecraft, it was impractical and politically inadvisable. Space law at the time was basically maritime law. The Apollo spacecraft were officially US-flagged vessels operating on the "high seas." As sovereign vessels on the high seas, sabotaging them would effectively be, under international law, an act either of piracy or of war. The desire of the Soviet Union to do that would be commensurate to their desire to attack a U.S. Navy warship.

The current incarnation of the MSFN and Deep Space networks allow for encryption.


Wow. That's a perfect example of the E in ISF yet again. Er... You know what I mean. :D Thank you, JayUtah. Should show Randi what he's missing.
 
No. Protection from eavesdropping was not a high priority goal compared to simplicity and reliability of communications. The Soviets seem to have felt the same way since at the time they did not encrypt their digital communications. In fact, some of their early space probes sent back photographs encoded as telefacsimile images, easily interpreted by third parties.

Thank you Jay for your detailed overview. You also described that the astronauts had to allow incoming transmissions to change on board information. I simply didn't think of that simple safety check. (whoops).

This thread is like a very slow documentary. Every now and then I learn something new. I'll go back to reading rather than posting, unless I have a specific question.
 
No. Protection from eavesdropping was not a high priority goal compared to simplicity and reliability of communications. The Soviets seem to have felt the same way since at the time they did not encrypt their digital communications.


I could even imagine that having open communications was actually a welcome way to show off their successes.
 
No. Protection from eavesdropping was not a high priority goal compared to simplicity and reliability of communications. The Soviets seem to have felt the same way since at the time they did not encrypt their digital communications. In fact, some of their early space probes sent back photographs encoded as telefacsimile images, easily interpreted by third parties.



Yes, in theory.

Yeah the Russians were too busy watching the landing, anyway.
 
Funny How So Much Gets Swept Under The Patriotic Umbrella

Just wondering Jay and company if the inspired and grossly misunderstood Fatty Dash ever published this tidbit I came across while doing some Spring cleaning, It may very well have but I am much too busy to pour through the volumes and scrap heaps and wanted to wish all you Skeptics a Happy New Year if you do indeed believe in such a concept as happiness:

From an Email from Patrick S. Tekeli BMF & MD to "David"

Subject: Re: The Officially Published Eagle Landing Coordinates were indeed the ones given to the Lick Observatory staff on the night of the Apollo 11 landing.

For what it is worth David, in case you are interested, and perhaps you are, I did figure out the "discrepancy", at least I am very close to positive that I did, the discrepancy between the coordinates as given to the Lick Observatory staff and those published as NASA/Scheisser's landing site best estimate. Actually, there is no discrepancy, the coordinates are the same.

On page 7-64(p[age 75 overall) of the March 16 1970 Trajectory analysis, Scheisser/NASA report has the 16mm launch analysis as the best estimate (BET). Those coordinates are 0.647 north and 23.505 east. Those same BET coordinates; 0.647 N and 23.505 E are also the last entry in the Lunar Landing Coordinate Table 5-IV of the Apollo 11 Mission Report, page 5-15 (page 64 overall). The Apollo 11 Mission Report report was published in November of 1969.

The Landing Site Coordinate Table of the Mission Report features below it, these three footnotes, a quote from the Mission Report;

"a) Following the Apollo 10 mission, a difference was noted (from the landmark tracking results) between the trajectory coordinate system and the coordinate system on the reference map. In order to reference trajectory values to the l:100 000 scale Lunar Map ORB-II-6 (lO0), dated December 1967, correction factors of plus 2'25" in latitude and minus 4'17" in longitude must be applied to the trajectory values.

b)All latitude values are corrected for the estimated out-of-plane position error at powered descent initiation.

C) These coordinate values are referenced to the map and include the correction factors."
Taking footnote "a)" into account, the Mission Report Landing Site Coordinate Table then features the BET; 0.647 N and 23.505 in minutes and seconds of arc format AND in so doing ALSO adds in the correction factors, plus 2'25" north and minus 4'17" east. So first converting 0.647 one gets; 00 38' 49" which is pretty much what you wrote for the "published" north coordinate (you had 00 38' 23.9994"). Add to this the correction factor of 2' 25" per footnote "a)" above and one gets 00 41' 14" north for the north landing coordinate. This is what indeed appears in the Mission Report Table as the last entry and is indeed what Professor Wampler was told at Lick Observatory on the evening of the landing, well almost exactly, he told me 00 41' 15" . So, 27 feet off, but the same for all intents and purposes. I am confident in my analysis because the numbers are all Scheisser's/NASA's, from the Trajectory Report and Mission Report. And they indeed indicate in the Trajectory Report this to be the best estimate and list these very numbers as the last entry in the Mission Report Table having corrected for the "footnote a)" issue and converting to seconds/minutes from the decimal representation.

In summary, NASA did not publish 00 38' 23.9994" as you indicated in your email to me, but rather the Trajectory Report and Apollo 11 Mission Report show the Published north coordinate to be 0.647 N or equivalently 00 38' 49", a difference from 00 38' 23.9994" of roughly 675 feet.

One can then go much faster in doing the BET calculation for the east coordinate. They listed/published in the Trajectory and Mission Reports; 23505 east. That gives 23 30' 18". We subtract the correction factor per footnote "a)" and get 23 26' 01", which again is just what they told Professor Wampler at Lick and what appears as well in the Mission Report Table of Landing Coordinates as the corrected value (with c indicating the relevant footnote in front of it). In your note to me you had 23 30' 00" which is the east coordinate without the correction factor of 4' 17" subtracted out.
So it turns out the Lick Observatory staff had indeed almost the exact BET numbers on the evening of the landing. They even had the numbers with the correction factor of 2' 25" appropriately added to the north coordinate, and the correction factor of 4' 17' appropriately subtracted from the east coordinate. The Lick staff were told 00 41' 15" north and 23 26' 00" east. Changing to decimal form that is equivalent to 0.6875 north and 23.433 east. If we subtract then the correction factor for the north coordinate and add the correction factor for the east-west coordinate, we get 0647 north and 23.505 east which are the "equivalent" coordinates in their "trajectory form". In this form they may also be expressed as 00 38' 49" and 23 30' 18". We can be confident this analysis is correct as Scheisser and the Trajectory Analysis Team that wrote this up endorse 0.647 north and 23.505 east as the BET( landing site best estimate) in both the Trajectory Report and the Mission Report.
I assume the footnote a) correction factors are needed going from trajectory to map coordinates because the map was made from photographs taken by a satellite flying above the lunar surface. The photographs were taken looking down on the moon's surface from the surface of a sphere larger than the moon(assuming a circular orbit). The larger sphere would have a diameter equal to that of the moon plus 2 X the distance above the moon that the photographing/map making satellite was flying.

Best to you , Patrick (And the spirit lives on & on & on & on & on & on & on
 

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