Apartheid alive & well. In NZ.

[The Atheist]

... apologist drivel removed...

Seriously, if the best you can come up with is that my race matters, then go ask Alan Duff, or one of many Maori who haven't swallowed Hone Harawira's hook, line and sinker.

On the other hand, you could always present some evidence that I'm wrong.

Good luck!

Ya know I have to wonder at your motives. In the list of issues you gave, nearly everyone of them show over representation in the Australian Aborginal population as well.

You know, I already knew that. There are quite a few other ethnic minorities around the world that have similar problems.

However, other ethnic minorities do occasionally have some problems to overcome. I'm old enough to recall being amazed at Muhammad Ali being discriminated against for being black and Tommy Smith was one of my boyhood heroes. In those circumstances, I can understand there being some issues still to deal with.

Need I remind you about what happened to Abos within living memory? Crikey, it's only a couple of years since Anthony Mundine got pulled over by the cops for being an Abo in a white fella's car.

Please list all genuine grievances of Maori from the past 100 years which have not already been long repaired.

See, your evidence of Abos is a great proof of my point - if a group with cultural advantages cannot improve on the detrimental traits of a hideously oppressed people, then something is clearly going wrong.

So one has to wonder, with all this red carpet treatment the Maoris got, and the constant kicking in the guts the various Koori people took, how both seem (According to you) ended up in same place.

It is amazing, and I don't know the answer. Pretty sure nobody does so far, but I just get the imression that if cosseting and favouring a people financially and legally isn't working, it's time to pull the plug.

There are a few theories. Legendary All Black captain D J Graham once claimed that it's because "Maori are lazy". Seeing as how he's probably dealt with more Maori than Parekura Horomia, he could have some insight. He could also be just a racist, although I think that's unlikely in a top-class rugby player in NZ.

And just in case me and DJ form a Pakeha conspiracy, there are some brown faces not happy at the situation as well. (6*7 knows that, but you might not.)

Alan Duff

Winston Peters

Ron Mark

John Tamihere & Dover Samuels

But everything's ok!

 

[The Atheist]

It ain't 'red carpet treatment', its 'lip service'

I didn't see this one.

In what way is billions of dollars, thousands [maybe hundreds of thousands] of hectares of land, sole fishing rights to the exclusion of all others, guaranteed representation in Parliament, "lip service".

Christ, I'd bet there are a few Abos wouldn't wave off that kind of lip service. That's lip service from Kylie Minogue!

TA is perpetuating the myth that the symptoms are the problem

Rubbish. I'm showing the symptoms to show the problem. That it's broken is clearly evinced by the fact that decades of that red carpet treatment has changed nothing, and probably exacerbated the situation with Maori welfare dependence now into its third generation.

I'm not purporting to know what the answer is, but I'm quite sure that having special privileges isn't working out too well.

Your continued denial of there even being an issue is laughable. Predictable, but laughable. That Cullen bloke will be in here shortly to give you succour.

TA is a liar

How original.

 

[six7s]

Seriously

Seriously?

Your willful ignorance masquerading as critical thinking is a joke

Either you haven't a clue or you are so far into denial that you actually believe your evidence (an inane list of symptoms) equates to a description of the fundamental problem

Please list all genuine grievances of Maori from the past 100 years which have not already been long repaired

Please, at least try to resist the urge to pretend that your 'arguments' are anything other than self-perpetuating ignorance

 

[six7s]

Your continued denial of there even being an issue is laughable.

Your apparent need to put words in my mouth is sad

 

[six7s]

In what way is billions of dollars, thousands [maybe hundreds of thousands] of hectares of land, sole fishing rights to the exclusion of all others, guaranteed representation in Parliament, "lip service".

My use of the term 'lip service' was aimed to counter the explicit half-truth (aka lie) in your use of 'privilege' in "Maori have had a privileged place in New Zealand society for 100 years, with the greatest privileges during the past 30-40 years."

 

[Floyt]

It is amazing, and I don't know the answer. Pretty sure nobody does so far, but I just get the imression that if cosseting and favouring a people financially and legally isn't working, it's time to pull the plug.

Yes, that must clearly be it. The remedies in place so far aren't delivering? Let's get rid of the lot then, because if they aren't the solution, they must be part of the problem?
Unless you can actually make a good claim that Maori prerogatives are the cause for their poor showing in these statistics, this does not make sense. It's far more reasonable to assume the situation would be a good deal worse without the "cosseting", that it's actually doing its job in assisting a minority adapt to a cultural transplant, and keep working on what remains to be improved.

Colonization has invariably been a Bad Thing for the people at the other end of the shipping lane (if there are any genuine exceptions, I don't know of them). You must be aware that the pivotal issues that have been addressed by the Waitangi Tribunal are not about economic gain, but maintaining cultural identity. The foreshore claims are not about gaining a monopoly to ship ling to Singapore, but about harvesting and managing a natural resource in a way that meshes with specific cultural values. This is not something that has generally been possible for peoples that have been "colonized over". I fail to see why the rare success of Maoris in this regard should be grounds for anything but applause.

First off, since it's being enacted - or about to be - it obviously has its proponents. Nice of you to come out with the "century of treaty violation" again. Shall we sue Germany and Japan for WWII now? Those bloody Krauts, especially - they started both of the flaming WWs!

Oh, you are a Kraut. I thought you were posting as a Kiwi? I guess you can be both, but clarification would be great.

Yes, you are good at rhetorics, nice foreshadowing device.
Clarification: I am a German who is living in Dunedin, and I don't have permanent residency either (yet, I hope).
(As an aside, "Kraut" and "Kiwi" have quite different loadings on the derogatory scale, but I'm sure you know that.)

Why stop with the Jews? I had an uncle killed by the Japs during the war, they should pay for it and keep paying!

You equate genocide of civilians with the death of a soldier in combat?

Oh yeah, but there's not the guilt factor with service deaths is there? Is the money to the Jews guilt-salving or really justice?

There is a large guilt factor in it. It is what happens when you feel you have done something ethically wrong and have no way to really remedy it, but try anyway. Why does that seem contemptible to you?

 

[The Atheist]

Clarification: I am a German who is living in Dunedin, and I don't have permanent residency either (yet, I hope).

No wonder you have no idea what you're talking about. A visitor staying in the least-Maori city in NZ.

(As an aside, "Kraut" and "Kiwi" have quite different loadings on the derogatory scale, but I'm sure you know that.)

Yep, just like Jap, which I notice you don't object to.

You equate genocide of civilians with the death of a soldier in combat?

Dead is dead.

 

[six7s]

No wonder you have no idea what you're talking about. A visitor staying in the least-Maori city in NZ.

So why are you talking out of your arse, Mr Jafa?

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Well, I usually mock the people who say that darn foriner's should stay out of their country's political threads...

But this foreigner, for one, is keeping his mouth tightly clamped shut.

 

[lionking]

As the Aboriginal issue in Australia has been raised, the noted Aboriginal leader, Aden Ridgeway, has said many times that the way forward for indigenous people in Australia is to break their dependence on both alcohol and welfare. He thinks that increased land rights (leading to economic advancement) will help achieve this, but there does not appear to be any evidence of improvement in the lot of indigenous Australians post Mabo. Dependency still seems to be a major problem, but how to break it is the question.

 

[The Atheist]

...nothing...

If you want to try discussing the subject, that's fine, but if all you have is the kindergarten "liar, liar, pants on fire" and the above posting, I'll leave you to it.

As the Aboriginal issue in Australia has been raised, the noted Aboriginal leader, Aden Ridgeway, has said many times that the way forward for indigenous people in Australia is to break their dependence on both alcohol and welfare. He thinks that increased land rights (leading to economic advancement) will help achieve this, but there does not appear to be any evidence of improvement in the lot of indigenous Australians post Mabo. Dependency still seems to be a major problem, but how to break it is the question.

Take a leaf out of NZ's book and give them more. It won't work, but it salves guilt.

 

[six7s]

If you want to try discussing the subject, that's fine

Great! Discuss!

Please, answer my question... y'know... the one I have asked FIVE TIMES... the question you have quoted FOUR TIMES... the question that asks what - from the perspective of your decades-in-the-making conclusion - is (or are) the fundamental problem(s)?'

but if all you have is the kindergarten "liar, liar, pants on fire" and the above posting, I'll leave you to it.

Its not a 'kindergarten "liar, liar, pants on fire"', nor is it all that I have...

However, calling you a liar is an apt response to your posts so far, simply because you are explicitly lying

 

[lionking]

Great! Discuss!

Okay, as much as I don't want to get in the middle of a fight between two Kiwis (both of whom I like BTW), do either of you have practical solutions to what are serious problems within the Maori community?

 

[six7s]

It would be ridiculous for me to pretend that I have solutions, simply because I lack a thorough understanding of the problems

 

[lionking]

It would be ridiculous for me to pretend that I have solutions, simply because I lack a thorough understanding of the problems

Is this just a back-hander at TA? Because I think you do have an understanding of the problems.

 

[PhantomWolf]

If you're a liar and or a fool, yeah...

Have you actually taken the time to read the founding document of this country, TA?

Note:

• it is legally binding
• one party (the Crown) is guilty of breaking it, to the detriment of the other party and, consequently, the whole nation...
  
  Surely you know this TA? Why pretend otherwise?

Umm... It isn't the "founding Document" of New Zealand. It was never ratified and wasn't even considered important enough to look after until the 1970's. Nor is it legally binding since it was never ratified and never made part of New Zealand law.

You need to learn the history of it yourself.

 

[six7s]

No, I'm being sincere

I reckon that I have a grasp of a fair bit... but I really only know enough to get an idea of how much I don't know...

This ain't some trivial political football...

Institutionalised racism is a deep, broad and exceedingly complicated issue

 

[six7s]

You need to learn the history of it yourself.

You ought to do some research yourself, before you make such patently WRONG assertions

Pakeha and The Treaty of Waitangi - Faculty of Law - The University of Auckland

The Faculty of Law, University of Auckland in association with The Human Rights Commision are co-hosting a public Symposium on Pakeha & The Treaty of Waitangi On Tuesday 6 th June 2006, from 11 am - 3.30pm

Professor David Williams, who will chair the symposium, says that as one of New Zealand’s principal founding documents the Treaty has undergone a renaissance in recent times.

“It is now routinely regarded as setting the framework for relations between the Crown and Maori. We will be looking beyond this at the Treaty’s impact on the public at large.”

This gives rise to major issues, says Professor Williams. “Is there any conflict between the Treaty and our human rights laws? What does this mean in the fields of health, education, justice, social services, local government and employment? How does all this impact on the public and private sector?”<snip/>

www.waitangi-tribunal.govt.nz The Waitangi Tribunal - Background

The Tribunal's Governing Legislation

The Waitangi Tribunal was established by an Act of Parliament, the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975. While that Act is the main statute governing the Tribunal, there are other statutes that regulate or affect how it works, including the Commissions of Inquiry Act 1908, the Treaty of Waitangi (State Enterprises) Act 1988, and the various statutes that give effect to Treaty claim settlements.

<snip/>

The Tribunal and the Legal System

The Waitangi Tribunal is part of New Zealand's judicial system, which comprises a range of bodies, including:

• the general courts (including the District Court, the High Court, and the Court of Appeal);
• a number of specialist courts (including the Māori Land Court, the Family Court, and the Environment Court);
• various tribunals (including the Disputes Tribunal and the Residential Tenancies Tribunal); and
• temporary commissions of inquiry, royal commissions of inquiry, and so forth, which are established to inquire into specific matters.

The Waitangi Tribunal is unusual in that it was established as a permanent commission of inquiry. For this reason, it differs from a court in several important respects:<snip/>

 

[H3LL]

How many Moriori have seats in parliament, fishing and mining rights?





.

 

[six7s]

How many Moriori have seats in parliament, fishing and mining rights?





.

At the last census: 945

http://www.teara.govt.nz/NewZealanders/MaoriNewZealanders/Moriori/6/en

Iwi (tribal) identification

In the New Zealand censuses since 1991, residents of Māori or Moriori descent were asked to indicate the tribe to which they were affiliated. The figures below show the number who indicated Moriori (including those who indicated more than one tribe), and the regions where they were found in the greatest numbers.

The only previous census asking Māori or Moriori to indicate tribal affiliation – but not of multiple tribes – was that of 1901.

* 1901 census: 35
* 1991 census: 105
* 2001 census: 585
* 2006 census: 945

Major regional locations

* Canterbury: 192
* Auckland: 129
* Wellington: 93
* Southland: 84