Apartheid alive & well. In NZ.

[lionking]

I don't think the Maoris do too badly. I can't remember ever seeing one that wasn't fat and happy.

Is "happy" a synonym for "drunk"?

 

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

Is "happy" a synonym for "drunk"?

Uh oh, uh oh...oh dear.

 

[lionking]

Yeah, I know. I shouldn't have said it. I've just administered a slap to my own wrist.

 

[six7s]

It doesn't matter if I've got it upside down and inside out... stop dodging and tell me what - from the perspective of your decades-in-the-making conclusion - is (or are) the fundamental problem(s)

Uh, I haven't dodged anything, but since I'd mentioned in the OP, I didn't think they were worth repeating, but here you go:

a whole bunch of symptoms

Clear now?

As mud

They ain't fundamental problems - and you know it, shirley?

If you think they are, then you're deluding yourself into making an irrelevant storm in a tea cup

Now... please try again

 

[Floyt]

Well, there you go. The one thing that I really admire about NZ political history - the decision to finally honour Waitangi, and make up for a century of treaty violation... and it's being called apartheid.
Apparently YMMV to a staggering degree.

Although I've seen the same reactions when I have stated that I consider my country's (Germany) continued payment of reparations to the Jewish community one of the few instances of continued good ethics in our foreign policy. Some obligations are designed to be handed over to following generations; war crimes as much as fundamental treaties.

 

[six7s]

Regarding other issues, such as those raised by six7s, I am ignorant too ignorant of NZ's history and law to comment.

If you have half an hour or so to spare, a skim read of www.nzhistory.net.nz may well prove worthwhile

The Treaty of Waitangi section includes material originally found on www.treatyofwaitangi.govt.nz, a site developed by the Treaty Information Unit in the State Services Commission. Material from that site is now combined with other topics on www.nzhistory.net.nz to provide a range of features about the Treaty of Waitangi and Waitangi Day. A Maori-language version of the Treaty site as developed by the Treaty Information Unit can be viewed here; it is still under development.

 

[six7s]

For a more thorough understanding, I can recommend:

The Penguin History of New Zealand
By Michael King
Published by Penguin Books, 2003
ISBN 0143018671, 9780143018674
563 pages

 

[rjh01]

And to think that NZ refused to become a part of Australia back in 1900 because Australia was a racist nation, with the white Australia policy being the first piece of legislation passed by the Federal Government.

One answer if you think the Maori has greater rights is to become one. I am sure there is a way of doing so. I do admit I do not know much about NZ.

 

[The Atheist]

As mud

They ain't fundamental problems - and you know it, shirley?

If you think they are, then you're deluding yourself into making an irrelevant storm in a tea cup

Now... please try again

Good that you identified it as a storm in a teacup, because you're right. What else would it be but that, taking into account that it refers to a country virtually nobody on the forum lives in?

If it was a major, important point, I'd be dealing with it somewhere else.

This is a discussion forum.

It's a discussion subject.

Well, there you go. The one thing that I really admire about NZ political history - the decision to finally honour Waitangi, and make up for a century of treaty violation... and it's being called apartheid.
Apparently YMMV to a staggering degree.

Obviously.

First off, since it's being enacted - or about to be - it obviously has its proponents. Nice of you to come out with the "century of treaty violation" again. Shall we sue Germany and Japan for WWII now? Those bloody Krauts, especially - they started both of the flaming WWs!

Although I've seen the same reactions when I have stated that I consider my country's (Germany) continued payment of reparations to the Jewish community one of the few instances of continued good ethics in our foreign policy. Some obligations are designed to be handed over to following generations; war crimes as much as fundamental treaties.

Oh, you are a Kraut. I thought you were posting as a Kiwi? I guess you can be both, but clarification would be great.

Why stop with the Jews? I had an uncle killed by the Japs during the war, they should pay for it and keep paying!

Oh yeah, but there's not the guilt factor with service deaths is there? Is the money to the Jews guilt-salving or really justice?

For a more thorough understanding, I can recommend:

The Penguin History of New Zealand
By Michael King
Published by Penguin Books, 2003
ISBN 0143018671, 9780143018674
563 pages

Now you're talking sense. That history site link you used is a bit dodgy - I've found them wrong once or twice.

And to think that NZ refused to become a part of Australia back in 1900 because Australia was a racist nation, with the white Australia policy being the first piece of legislation passed by the Federal Government.

Ah, that's another of those injustices we'd already moved past. As far as I'm aware, apart from the odd wartime acquisition, all illegal confiscations of Maori land were well done by 1900. Universal franchise was granted in 1893, which helped make up for Maori men being the first enfranchised group in NZ< before white fellas even.

On that basis, we were never going to join your sheep-stealing forebears.

One answer if you think the Maori has greater rights is to become one. I am sure there is a way of doing so. I do admit I do not know much about NZ.

Nope, it's birthright only. If you cannot prove Maori blood in documentary fashion, forget it.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

What the Maori did, that no other native group did in their dealings with British Colonial expansion?

Consume the vanquished?

 

[six7s]

This is a discussion forum.

It's a discussion subject

Then stop being such an arse and discuss!

For the third time:

tell me what - from the perspective of your decades-in-the-making conclusion - is (or are) the fundamental problem(s)​

 

[HarryKeogh]

Will Peter Jackson make a movie about this issue?

Yes. He starts filming in Mordor this summer.

 

[six7s]

Apartheid alive & well. In NZ.

It could also be described as reverse apartheid, since, in an unusual twist, the minority racial group - Maori - are the ones gaining the benefits of the policy.

Will Peter Jackson make a movie about this issue?

Yes. He starts filming in Mordor this summer.

Fantastic!

Nominated

 

[MG1962]

What on earth is this apologetic nonsense?

Laws change because people create pressure to change them, not because people roll over and let it be.

Believe what you like. The reality of the world is very different. We are not talking about changing the speed limit or opening hours for bars.

The treaty between the Maori and British became a cornerstone that helped define New Zealand. Did the treaty produce the result both sides wanted. Who knows, but compared to indigenious people in other parts of the world, the Maori carved out a better result than most

 

[The Atheist]

Believe what you like. The reality of the world is very different. We are not talking about changing the speed limit or opening hours for bars.

Funnily enough, we are talking about speed limits in a way, because the separatism has grown so severe that some [many?] Maori believe they have the right to issue their own driver licences and ignore white man's traffic laws.

The treaty between the Maori and British became a cornerstone that helped define New Zealand. Did the treaty produce the result both sides wanted. Who knows, but compared to indigenious people in other parts of the world, the Maori carved out a better result than most

Yes, they were fortunate in being the people at the absolute limit of distance from England.

However, given that better result than others, when the same people supply half of prison inmates, half the recipients of single-family benefits and are over-represented in every negative statistic, I think it's reasonable to say that having special benefits is a failure.

 

[six7s]

However, given that better result than others, when the same people supply half of prison inmates, half the recipients of single-family benefits and are over-represented in every negative statistic, I think it's reasonable to say that having special benefits is a failure.

2 + 2 = 666 ???

TA, there are times when your perspective is worthy of consideration

This ain't one of those times

I think it's reasonable to say that your so-called reasoning is ridiculously, stupidly illogical

Oh... yeah... and I'm still waiting for you to describe what - from the perspective of your decades-in-the-making conclusion - is (or are) the fundamental problem(s)

 

[The Atheist]

I think it's reasonable to say[/B] that your so-called reasoning is ridiculously, stupidly illogical

On what grounds?

Do you really need me to quote chapter and percentage on the following?

Crime rate
Prison population
Unemployment
Domestic violence
Killing your kids
Sickness beneficiaries
DPB beneficiaries
Teenage pregnancy... ad nauseum

Maori have had a privileged place in New Zealand society for 100 years, with the greatest privileges during the past 30-40 years.

Despite those privileges, Maori are over-represented in every negative statistic regarding society in 2009.

What part of "complete and utter failure" are you missing?

Oh... yeah... and I'm still waiting for you to describe what - from the perspective of your decades-in-the-making conclusion - is (or are) the fundamental problem(s)

Well, if you haven't got it by now, I'm surprised you're still bothering. I guess the pretty colours are keeping you amused.

 

[six7s]

On what grounds?

On the grounds that it is bloodl obvious that, when you said "I think it's reasonable to say that having special benefits is a failure", your thinking processes were/are munted

Do you really need me to quote chapter and percentage on the following?

I need nothing from you. I expect that you - an otherwise intelligent man - think, read the question and, in answering it, acknowledge you ain't omniscient

Crime rate
Prison population
Unemployment
Domestic violence
Killing your kids
Sickness beneficiaries
DPB beneficiaries
Teenage pregnancy... ad nauseum

These are symptoms

I'm asking you to consider the cause

Maori have had a privileged place in New Zealand society for 100 years, with the greatest privileges during the past 30-40 years.

This is so stupid I sincerely accuse you of lying insofar as you are telling an irrelevant truth, and nothing but an irrelevant truth

And you know it

Sad

Despite those privileges, Maori are over-represented in every negative statistic regarding society in 2009.

True. Please don't pretend that your blinkered, ignorant, decades-in-the-making hobby-horse is a sure bet

What part of "complete and utter failure" are you missing?

You bent my irony meter

Well, if you haven't got it by now, I'm surprised you're still bothering.

You, a Pakeha, are spouting divisive nonsense on a critical thinking forum

I, another Pakeha, feel obliged to counter your crap

I guess the pretty colours are keeping you amused.

There are times when your dazzling wit is dulled by the slobber dripping from your lips

Stop lying TA

Answer my question

 

[MG1962]

On what grounds?

Do you really need me to quote chapter and percentage on the following?

Crime rate
Prison population
Unemployment
Domestic violence
Killing your kids
Sickness beneficiaries
DPB beneficiaries
Teenage pregnancy... ad nauseum

Maori have had a privileged place in New Zealand society for 100 years, with the greatest privileges during the past 30-40 years.

Despite those privileges, Maori are over-represented in every negative statistic regarding society in 2009.

What part of "complete and utter failure" are you missing?



Well, if you haven't got it by now, I'm surprised you're still bothering. I guess the pretty colours are keeping you amused.

Ya know I have to wonder at your motives. In the list of issues you gave, nearly everyone of them show over representation in the Australian Aborginal population as well.

So one has to wonder, with all this red carpet treatment the Maoris got, and the constant kicking in the guts the various Koori people took, how both seem (According to you) ended up in same place.

 

[six7s]

So one has to wonder, with all this red carpet treatment the Maoris got, and the constant kicking in the guts the various Koori people took, how both seem (According to you) ended up in same place.

It ain't 'red carpet treatment', its 'lip service'

TA is perpetuating the myth that the symptoms are the problem

TA is a liar