Anyone lost any freedoms?

[Kevin_Lowe]

But that is assuming you can even get to a courtroom. Jose Padilla (an American citizen, arrested in America) spent 3 1/2 years in jail WITHOUT CHARGES.

Or if you are overseas, you can be killed out of hand by the CIA. Kamal Derwish, a US citzen, was killed in Yemen by a missile launched from a Predator drone by the CIA.

Bear in mind that Derwish was not killed in the heat of battle while he was threatening the lives of US troops, or anything of that sort. He was merely an alleged Al Qaida member travelling in a car with other alleged Al Qaida members, who the CIA had decided to assassinate. He had not been tried, let alone convicted, of any offence at all.

Was he an active Al Qaida member? Probably. Will the world miss him? Probably not. Should a secretive branch of the US government be allowed to execute US citizens abroad on its own say-so? Absolutely not.

It also bears pointing out that the "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" argument cuts both ways, and the Bush administration has constantly acted as if it had something to fear from judicial oversight. The laws for wiretapping terrorists were very liberal and it was virtually unknown for a judge to refuse the intelligence services a warrant. It was even legal to wiretap and get a warrant after the event. The only possible reason to remove judicial oversight was to enable the executive to spy on people who were manifestly not terrorists.

Asking the average troofer to name a specific freedom they have lost is a bit like asking the average music fan to name an exact time and place that a rock star has trashed a hotel room. They probably won't be able to give you a sensible answer on the spot but it would still be just a cheap debating trick if you pretended that this was evidence no rock star ever trashed a hotel room. News stories about Bush-administration encroachments on civil liberties came in a constant stream and most people can't remember all the details of any one incident.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Your right to travel freely without having to show travel papers or get permission is a basic freedom here in the US.

BS. You have to show your government paper, your ID, to get on an airplane and to get your ticket.

You, I, anyone here on the JREF forum or anywhere else can pack a bag and head off to any place we want to.

Right, if you don't mind the harassment package that the government has endorsed, you are welcomed to it. My nail clippers are not a threat to national security, nor to you safe flight, nor are my mother's shoes.

So boo hoo, you don't like going through security at the airports. Don't fly.

You seem to have forgotten: I stated that I am boycotting air travel as a response to ass hattery.

You're perfectly free to tavel any other way you wish.

Which I do.

Just remember though that if you want to drive you have to demonstrate to the government your ability to drive, and you have to play by the rules of the roads.

That isn't a factor in "travel." I do already pay the taxes, and drive within the guidelines, for the mundane purpose of getting from here to there. Road taxes are part of what keeps the roads available for all of us, to inclue me. Passenger harassment adds no value to the availability of the airwars, and it adds cost. When I travel by car, what I don't get is pointless harassment that attempts to provide the illusion of security.

The over reaction, the senselessness of the current passenger harassment program yields no greater security than before. It merely adds to the asspain of air travel, and I have decided that I don't need that crap in my life.

I am being presumed criminal by the mere fact of purchasing an airline ticket.

DR

 

[LibraryLady]

Loss of library record privacy... Such a pain...

Well, I was asked if I lost any rights, and I answered accurately. As to loss of "library privacy," the actual loss is the right to read privately. If someone is monitoring what you read, they are also monitoring your thoughts. If the Homeland Security department decides tomorrow that the Catcher in the Rye is a book with hidden instructions for terrorists, and wants libraries to report all those reading that book, those reading it for innocent purposes, like a term paper, will have their name on a list for no reason.

As to telephone calls, I don't know about you, but I rather enjoy talking on the phone and being fairly confident that no one was listening but my friend, sister, mother, etc. Although I'm pretty sure the FBI has a file on me (my brother had top security clearance, so I'm betting they investigated all of us), I really don't want it to include my sister's opinion of the Governor of Ohio.

If you are not from the U.S. and didn't have these rights to begin with, that's fine. I had these rights and they were taken away. You asked. I answered.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Well, I was asked if I lost any rights, and I answered accurately. As to loss of "library privacy," the actual loss is the right to read privately. If someone is monitoring what you read, they are also monitoring your thoughts. If the Homeland Security department decides tomorrow that the Catcher in the Rye is a book with hidden instructions for terrorists, and wants libraries to report all those reading that book, those reading it for innocent purposes, like a term paper, will have their name on a list for no reason.

If you are not from the U.S. and didn't have these rights to begin with, that's fine. I had these rights and they were taken away. You asked. I answered.

Consider "The Turner Diaries" in light of your remarks, and the tracking of persons who subscribe to Soldier of Fortune.

DR

 

[Pardalis]

As to loss of "library privacy," the actual loss is the right to read privately. If someone is monitoring what you read, they are also monitoring your thoughts. If the Homeland Security department decides tomorrow that the Catcher in the Rye is a book with hidden instructions for terrorists, and wants libraries to report all those reading that book, those reading it for innocent purposes, like a term paper, will have their name on a list for no reason.

I doubt that will ever happen. Frankly, I think they have better things to do than to monitor your reading, besides they don't have the resources to do it.

As to telephone calls, I don't know about you, but I rather enjoy talking on the phone and being fairly confident that no one was listening but my friend, sister, mother, etc.

Honestly, do you think your government has the time, resources and interest to moniter you, your mother, friend, sister, etc?

If you are not from the U.S. and didn't have these rights to begin with, that's fine. I had these rights and they were taken away. You asked. I answered.

I didn't ask, really, I was just poking fun at Truthseeker the conspiracy theorist.

Love that avatar.

 

[drkitten]

I doubt that will ever happen. Frankly, I think they have better things to do than to monitor your reading, besides they don't have the resources to do it.

You'd be surprised at how little resources it actually takes to monitor someone. The problem is not with the monitoring, but with the evaluation of the results of the monitoring.

On the other hand, computers are getting much, much better at being able to do the evaluation semi-automatically as well. Do you remember the FBI's "Carnivore" proposal?

 

[LibraryLady]

Consider "The Turner Diaries" in light of your remarks, and the tracking of persons who subscribe to Soldier of Fortune.

DR

I have. Actually, I was thinking of using the example of Mein Kampf, because there was a fuss about it at my library, lately. What if someone is doing a report for school on racism and has checked out Mein Kampf and the Turner Diaries (which, oddly enough is in the African American Collection). Do they deserve to be on a list?

As to phone calls, if the government isn't tracking, why did they ask the telephone companies for records? In today's networked world, tracking people isn't all that difficult.

I love my avatar too--That's my budgie, Nick, mon.

 

[G-K-4]

Three questions:

1.) In this new reality, how do you correct information about you that is incorrect?

2.) Do any of you think that a person should have the right AND the power to control when, where, and to whom they reveal personal information, and that each revelation shall not be compiled elsewhere?

3.) Those of you who believe that the law will protect you from unlawful government action, how do you handle intrusions and abuses by third parties?

Some of you seem to not mind that a U.S. government (at whatever level) can find out all about you. You obviously don't consider yourself someone they would perceive as a potential threat.

But what if someone else takes an interest in you? Say, a private individual with an axe to grind, or a corporation that discriminates unjustifiably, or an organization with an agenda, or a militia compiling an enemies list, or a terrorist group targetting Americans, or (if you are a citizen/subject of a non-U.S. government, for example, China) that other government itself?

You don't have to be a U.S. Federal Government agent, with access to vast records, to put together information about someone. Some skill, a tiny amount of time, and access to today's vast private, commercial databases are all you need to get a pretty good sense of someone (including their politics, sexuality, and reading habits), and even some very useful details (such as where they are at any given moment).

Only part of this is a result of the September 11 Attacks. Much of the rest of it probably would have happened anyway. Does that make it better?

Listen to this: http://www.hopenumbersix.net/speakers.html#pid2

"HOPE 2006: Privacy Is Dead - Get Over It Revisited, with Steven Rambam

"When the Steve Rambam talk at HOPE Number Six was disrupted by his arrest minutes before he was scheduled to go on stage, we vowed to make sure it would one day be presented to the public. That day occurred on Thursday, November 16, 2006. HOPE Number Six finally came to an end with a three hour talk at the Stevens Institute in Hoboken, New Jersey that focused on just how much information on each of us is readily accessible to virtually anyone. Steve also revealed all of the information he was able to find on a volunteer "victim" and answered all sorts of questions from the standing room only audience, including what really happened back in July."

 

[Pardalis]

Then toss your computer out the window, delete all your credit cards and bank accounts and you'll do fine.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Then toss your computer out the window, delete all your credit cards and bank accounts and you'll do fine.

False dichomies with smileys are still false dichotomies.

 

[delphi_ote]

the price of freedom is eternal vigilence, however that applies to both to citizens watching the govt, as well as the govt watching citizens

the CTers like to think of themselves as the watchdogs, however they are so busy trying to figure out what the government is up to, they never stop to look at who actually is up to something

Right, but we should never say "If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about." Abuse of power is a problem everywhere. Citizens have to make sure there are safeguards against it.

 

[Beerina]

Serious question: How many and which phone calls are monitered by the government?

You don't know. That's the problem with a warrantless search.

If I remember correctly only those suspected of terrorism had their conversations tapped.

You don't know. That's the problem with a warrantless search.

Let me ask you a question: Does history teach us that those in power abuse the ability to spy and eavesdrop?

It's been stated over and over again that there is no impediment to the president getting these wire taps -- he can even request it after the fact, and if he is denied, bfd. But at least it's on record.

That's why this is a serious problem. Now there's no record.

Although it doesn't concern me that much either way, I have nothing to hide. Perhaps when I rob a bank and want to brag about it over the phone, then I will be against it.

If you were the president's political opponent, you would have quite a lot to hide, that has nothing to do with the war on terror but an awful lot to do with who might win the next election. Since it's all right there in his secret little room, manned by big supporters, how are you to know he doesn't peek in a little bit here or there?

 

[Pardalis]

False dichomies with smileys are still false dichotomies.

I wasn't serious, hence the smiley.

 

[Checkmite]

I lost the right to divulge personal medical information about any patients I may have to friends and relatives at parties, bars, and restaurants. Damn you, HIPAA!

 

[PerryLogan]

Well, maybe a few freedoms lost

Following are examples of freedoms which President Bush and his fellow Republicans in Congress have already expunged (as reported by the Associated Press):

FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigations.

FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records questions.

FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.

RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.

RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.

http://baltimorechronicle.com/020105ChuckBaldwin.shtml

ACLU Testimony at a Hearing on "America after 9/11: Freedom Preserved or Freedom Lost?" Before the Senate Judiciary Committee, Submitted by Nadine Strossen, President and Timothy H. Edgar, Legislative Counsel

The specific freedoms that have been abridged - by the PATRIOT Act and by other government actions - often involve technical and complex changes to surveillance laws, detention regulations, and government guidelines. However, they share common themes. The government's new surveillance and detention powers have undermined important checks and balances, diminished personal privacy, increased government secrecy, and exacerbated inequality.

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/16946leg20031118.html

Prior to Sept. 11, people were able to access the United States Geological Survey Website, which posted information about America's water resources. Interested individuals could learn what specific areas in our country were plentiful in water reserves and how we used and cleaned our water. Not anymore, the Web page has been removed. The International Nuclear Safety Center has removed interactive maps from its site, maps students could access to learn more about nuclear power plants and what they do. Not anymore. It's gone.

The Nuclear Regulatory Commission completely shut down its Web site, then more recently restored it with "select content." Attorney General John Ashcroft issued a memo Oct. 12 urging federal agencies to exercise greater caution in disclosing information, noting the Justice Department is committed to "full compliance with the Freedom of Information Act," but is "equally committed to protecting other fundamental values held by our society." Ashcroft also said in the memo that "When you carefully consider FOIA requests and decide to withhold records, in whole or in part, you can be assured that the Department of Justice will defend your decisions unless they lack a sound legal basis."

http://www.unf.edu/groups/spinnaker/archives/2002/mar27/editorial2.html

 

[Beerina]

Of course, the Greeks also owned slaves and citizens were a small select group of the actual inhabitants of the city-state. It may have been progressive for the times, but would be considered quite autocratic and repressive by today's standards.

I'll bet it'd still be better than what about a third of humanity has at the moment.

 

[fuelair]

A great thread I saw over at LC, figured it would get more response here.

What freedoms have you lost since 9/11? Everyone seems to talk about what freedoms they've lost. Go on, list them all:

1.
2.
3.

...

Freedom to fly with only very minor difficulties?hassles.

 

[Darth Rotor]

http://baltimorechronicle.com/020105ChuckBaldwin.shtml

ACLU Testimony at a Hearing on "America after 9/11: Freedom Preserved or Freedom Lost?" Before the Senate Judiciary Committee, Submitted by Nadine Strossen, President and Timothy H. Edgar, Legislative Counsel

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/16946leg20031118.html

http://www.unf.edu/groups/spinnaker/archives/2002/mar27/editorial2.html

Perry, out of curiosity: how does any, or a particular one, of those items impact your life in Blueland? (Yes, Travis County is Blueland. )

I am also curious about the lawyer thing, and the subtle difference between citizen and resident alien. It's been a few months, but we had a detailed discussion here about the recent law on what provisions of the terror act applied, and there was a finite distinction in difference of status between citizen, resident alien, and all other aliens.

DR

 

[Luke T.]

Tapping you when you call - now there is something that needs controls.Oh, wait, search warrants, judges, that sort of thing.

Except the government isn't getting warrants and "that sort of thing" when tapping calls which originate in the US to overseas.

Oh yeah Karl Rove - wow he could get access to who I called from my cell phone? Wow, that's threatening.

Yes, it is. Extremely threatening. And if you don't think so, then you are a fool.

 

[Luke T.]

I keep thinking about that memo. What was it, Phoenix? An FBI agents says something along the lines of "hey, there's an awful lot of Middle Eastern guys taking flying lessons. Kinda mysterious, dontcha think?" It never made it up the chain of command.

I keep thinking about that memo. I think about what if that memo was written right now, buried under additional layers of government bureaucracy and a whole new Department, and 11 million Verizon phone records of American citizens.

Collect enough data and you are going to find patterns. Lots and lots of patterns. Like my avatar. Some people see Jesus, when all it really is is a blood stain on a Band-Aid.

Patterns in phone calls, library books, bank transactions. Meanwhile, Ahmed A. Qaeda is renting a small private plane and loading it up with some bleach and some chlorine.

Hey, how long's it take to become a US citizen? How long's it been since 9/11?

"They hate us for our freedoms". That is becoming more ironic by the hour.