Anyone lost any freedoms?

gumboot said:
"Freedom" is not about YOU being free as an individual. It is about your SOCIETY being free. In the most fundamental sense, being "free" means not being owned. Slavery is the antithesis of freedom. When the Greeks developed their free societies, that was the invention of the concept of citizens.
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Of course, the Greeks also owned slaves and citizens were a small select group of the actual inhabitants of the city-state. It may have been progressive for the times, but would be considered quite autocratic and repressive by today's standards.
 
WildCat said:
Of course, the Greeks also owned slaves and citizens were a small select group of the actual inhabitants of the city-state. It may have been progressive for the times, but would be considered quite autocratic and repressive by today's standards.
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Absolutely. But the key was the notion that you had a free society of citizens who ran things. That was a bit more than progressive, it was entirely new.

All that has changed is, over time, we have widened our determination of who qualifies as a "citizen". afterall, even our societies aren't universal yet - five year olds can't vote...

-Gumboot
 
Deus Ex Machina said:
The wireless and phone companies have ALWAYS had this data - there is nothing new about it at all.
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Yes, they have it. And I'd prefer that they not share it without my consent. Why? A little thing you might have heard of called "privacy".

Deus Ex Machina said:
You are complaining because they keep track of who you call and for how long. IT IS HOW THEY BILL YOU. Don't want to be billed? Don't use the service.
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No, I am complaining because they gave it to the government. I don't mind their collecting it and using it commercially. That's what my contract with them says that they can do. I do have a problem with them giving it to the government, and if we're lucky some judges will have a problem with that as well.

Deus Ex Machina said:
It has nothing to do with "monitoring". Semantics once again.

There is nothing sacred about it.
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You might wish to confirm what "monitoring" is then. And I'd like to let the courts decide whether there is anything wrong about it.

Deus Ex Machina said:
Tapping you when you call - now there is something that needs controls.Oh, wait, search warrants, judges, that sort of thing.
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They've also gone overboard on that when the call is between the USA and a foreign country. As someone who regularly calls Canada and China, this does not please me.

Deus Ex Machina said:
why not sue the phone companies? Oh wait, it's a straightforward commercial charge.
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There are such lawsuits in place.

Deus Ex Machina said:
Oh yeah Karl Rove - wow he could get access to who I called from my cell phone? Wow, that's threatening.
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It is if you're a potential whistleblower who was thinking of talking to a reporter.

[...]

Deus Ex Machina said:
Au contraire - freedom doesn't mean shrieking about imagined slights merely to try to score political points. It means a lot more than that. It means confronting problems that come up, being willing to do something about them, being willing to take action.

Freedom didn't happen in this country because a bunch of people sat around and accused George of being a tyrant. It didn't happen because lawyers went on and on about "process".
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Note that this country was founded on a distrust of central government. And you're trying to use its rhetoric to support an excessive central government?

A lot of that process also was created as a protection against central government.

Let me ask you a question. Where were you on September 11, 2001? I was in New York City. I was not just in the city. I lived in medical student housing in the Bellevue-Tisch Hospital complex. That's right. The place that they took all of the body parts and tried to reassemble them.

I say this to make a point. And the point is that I lived through the most horrendous terrorist attack that this country has seen. I lived through it and was personally impacted far more than most people were, almost certainly more than you do. That provides context for what I have to say next.

I personally fear terrorism less than our government. Furthermore our government's actions have made me more fearful of terrorism, not less. We have provided would-be terrorists with means (increased gas prices, lots of new recruits) and motives (invasion of Iraq, etc) for causing us further trouble. Our additional security is a joke. (Guess what screening the people who clean planes get? Oh right, none. A good portion aren't even legally supposed to be in the country.) And the whole world hates us. And we've made the point loud and clear - if you want to protect yourself from the USA, get yourself nukes.

Deus Ex Machina;2112992 Defending freedom doesn't mean that every step taken to combat threats is a "step to fascism" andone stupid enough to say that doesn't know what fascism is. They certainly don't have a clue what a totalitarian regime is.[/quote said:
Funny. I personally know several people who lived under totalitarian regimes, currently live in the USA, and are very worried about what has been happening here. Now I suspect that someone from, say, Iran probably has more experience than you do with totalitarian regimes. But I'm supposed to take your word on it and believe that she doesn't have a clue what a totalitarian regime is?

Sorry, I'm not that stupid.

Ben
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Ben Tilly said:
Yes, they have it. And I'd prefer that they not share it without my consent. Why? A little thing you might have heard of called "privacy".
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You should seriously move to New Zealand.

No one is allowed to do anything with personal information (other than the specific reason it was gathered) without your explicity permission.

-Gumboot
 
You have lost the freedom to be left alone. You have lost the freedom to travel without being harrassed and not to have to arrive at the airport two hours before your flight. You have lost to freedom not to be a suspect for no particular reason. There's a famous picture of a five year old boy with his arms outstretched being scanned by a security guard with a hand held metal detector. You question comes from the same place as the comment "If you haven't done anything wrong, you haven't got anything to worry about."
 
Sing it with me, folks:

Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
No, there's a hefty ****in' fee.
And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five
Who will?

You don't throw in your buck 'o five. Who will?
Oooh buck 'o five
Freedom costs a buck 'o five​
 
billydkid said:
You have lost the freedom to be left alone. You have lost the freedom to travel without being harrassed and not to have to arrive at the airport two hours before your flight. You have lost to freedom not to be a suspect for no particular reason. There's a famous picture of a five year old boy with his arms outstretched being scanned by a security guard with a hand held metal detector. You question comes from the same place as the comment "If you haven't done anything wrong, you haven't got anything to worry about."
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The things you have listed above are all either very weak "freedoms" or things you never had in the first place.

Re: the five year old getting scanned... are you aware that in the recent airline bombing plot in London two parents were going to smuggle liquid explosive onto the aircraft inside their baby's milk bottle?

When you are dealing with people who will do anything and everything to cause death and destruction you have only two options, assuming you want to prevent it.

You either throw every resources you have at seeking them out across the globe and destroying them, or you gradually tighten your own security until the point where your society is paralysed, but safe.

Many people in the west are strongly opposed to their governments doing either. One can only assume they don't WANT this breed of terrorism to be prevented.

-Gumboot
 
DEM said...
Au contraire - freedom doesn't mean shrieking about imagined slights merely to try to score political points. It means a lot more than that. It means confronting problems that come up, being willing to do something about them, being willing to take action.

Freedom didn't happen in this country because a bunch of people sat around and accused George of being a tyrant. It didn't happen because lawyers went on and on about "process".

Defending freedom doesn't mean that every step taken to combat threats is a "step to fascism" andone stupid enough to say that doesn't know what fascism is. They certainly don't have a clue what a totalitarian regime is.
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BRAVO! Well Said!
 
To be honest, many of these claims are almost as looney sounding as the twoofer claims. Have evidence for these?

PerryLogan said:
Your privacy is largely gone.
The right to vote is barely a breath on a mirror.
The press corps exist in a state of perpetual fear.
Whistleblowers live in terror.
Laws passed by your elected representatives get rewritten by the President, just like that.
We know we're screwed if there's another hurricane.
You can join the Army, but you may not be able to leave it.
Most of us want a healthcare system, but they won't do anything
Most of us want the President and Vice-President impeached, but they won't do it.
You might want to watch what books you check out of the library.
The U.S. is so deeply in debt we cannot even declare war without the OK of foreign investors.
The only opinions on TV are those of crazy white guys.
Institutions designed to protect us are now hurting us.
Sometimes the machines flip the votes right in front of our eyes.
Torture is now national policy.
Democracy has been pared to the bone.
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And then there are some that certainly existed before 9/11, and before the Bush "regime"...
 
gumboot said:
The things you have listed above are all either very weak "freedoms" or things you never had in the first place.

Re: the five year old getting scanned... are you aware that in the recent airline bombing plot in London two parents were going to smuggle liquid explosive onto the aircraft inside their baby's milk bottle?

When you are dealing with people who will do anything and everything to cause death and destruction you have only two options, assuming you want to prevent it.

You either throw every resources you have at seeking them out across the globe and destroying them, or you gradually tighten your own security until the point where your society is paralysed, but safe.

Many people in the west are strongly opposed to their governments doing either. One can only assume they don't WANT this breed of terrorism to be prevented.

-Gumboot
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What he said
Edit: I agree with DEM as well, people harping about privacy and the like. If the gumverment wants your identity known you wont stop them. Its been that way for a long time. Its just become easier over time and now of course, its essential that it is easy due to the current climate. Lots of people winge and cry foul, but if your not doing anything wrong, why worry? The law will be on your side.
 
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delphi_ote said:
Quis custodiet custodes ipsos?
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the price of freedom is eternal vigilence, however that applies to both to citizens watching the govt, as well as the govt watching citizens

the CTers like to think of themselves as the watchdogs, however they are so busy trying to figure out what the government is up to, they never stop to look at who actually is up to something
 
My freedoms haven't really changed, I have only flown on one airplane and that was before 9/11 so I can't complain about airport problems.
 
JAStewart said:
A great thread I saw over at LC, figured it would get more response here.

What freedoms have you lost since 9/11? Everyone seems to talk about what freedoms they've lost. Go on, list them all:
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Well it is hard to list an actual freedom I've lost, but I will add this.

I discontinued some of my political activity out of fear of persecution.

LLH
 
hellaeon said:
Lots of people winge and cry foul, but if your not doing anything wrong, why worry? The law will be on your side.
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But that is assuming you can even get to a courtroom. Jose Padilla (an American citizen, arrested in America) spent 3 1/2 years in jail WITHOUT CHARGES.

LLH
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Dog Town said:
Not a right, and served the punk right!
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Unless the articles/video left something major out, you are quite right!!!!

And I don't fly anymore either - no fear of it just don't want to play the silly games designed to look like they are protecting us from real terrorists. And to make suppliers wealthy.
 
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