Any hypothesis on pools of metal?

[Devil's Advocate]

I just wanted to pick up on the smoke colour.

I happened to be reading a guide to the United Kingdom Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order yesterday (don't ask!) The one I was reading was for producing a Fire Risk Assessment for Small And Medium Places Of Entertainment.

Link http://www.communities.gov.uk/pub/426/SmallandMediumPlacesofAssemblyfullguide_id1500426.pdf

At the bottom of page 16 (document page) is this paragraph.

This fits with my experience, and it has been mentioned by other posters here, the smoke colour is mainly influenced by what is burning, and is not indicative of oxygen starvation.

Dave

Thanks a lot for that. Yeah I remembered hearing about black smoke being a sign of O2 starvation, but could not recall where.
Now this gives me more ways to look at the tower smoke.

 

[e^n]

Thanks a lot for that. Yeah I remembered hearing about black smoke being a sign of O2 starvation, but could not recall where.
Now this gives me more ways to look at the tower smoke.

Your interest seems to be reasonably balanced and you have commented fairly on both sides of the issue so far. How much of the NIST report have you read / how familiar are you with the 'Official Conspiracy Theory'? I ask because the majority of 'truthers' I have come across have gained most of their information about the NIST report and the building collapses from pro-conspiracy websites, and as such repeat claims like 'NIST MISREPRESENTED CORE COLUMN SIZE' without ever checking if it's true (it's not).

 

[Revolutionary91]

NIST themselves admit that the fires were oxygen starved. Irrelevant really since we know the temperatures the fire reached.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Why would I feign confusion?

We have all seen the clip where the italian-named firefighter expresses his incredulity at the fact they didnt find any office paraphenalia.

I do not believe that 50,000 telephones, in a random chaotic collapse that spread well outside the footprint, would just disappear.

So you don't believe that? Fine. So what? What do you suggest happened to them? Which part of ANY conspiracy scheme is it to somehow make all the telephones disappear? What difference do you feel it makes for the telephone remains if the building was:

1) Collapsing due to aircraft impacts and subsequent fires.
2) Collapsing due to planted explosives.
3) Blown up by space beams.
4) Abducted by UFOs and replaced by random landfill material.

As far as I can see #4 is the only one that should make any considerable difference for the amount of telephone remains.

Hans

 

[BeAChooser]

according to all reports I've read, the fires in the towers would not have been hot enough to melt most metals.

Just out of curiousity, how how do you think it got?

 

[e^n]

NIST themselves admit that the fires were oxygen starved. Irrelevant really since we know the temperatures the fire reached.

I believe you'll find they specify the fires were "fuel-rich", meaning combustion was dictated by oxygen availability, the prevailing winds and large gaping holes in the building provide plenty of oxygen for combustion.

 

[Revolutionary91]

I believe you'll find they specify the fires were "fuel-rich", meaning combustion was dictated by oxygen availability, the prevailing winds and large gaping holes in the building provide plenty of oxygen for combustion.

No. There is a section (which I will track down) which says that the fires were oxygen starved. I remember it because it is in Dave Von Kliests new film that I watched last night. He puts the quotes up on the screen. It's a good film by the way.

 

[T.A.M.]

you know what I love, is when people from the truth movement come here and whine about how they were told we are happy to answer questions, and debate is the end all and be all here.

Now we do like to debate, but my question to those who say the above is, who the F*&K told you this? All the truthers that come here tend to get their asses spanked, so why they would then go back and report that the JREF is a wonderful place for convo and debate is beyond me...it is, but why would those who get their asses kicked over here go back and tell others this?

TAM

 

[BeAChooser]

So what do you believe? That all the phones had been removed from the building before it collapsed? That someone put explosives in all the phones and blew them up?

Good one. ROTFLOL!

 

[BeAChooser]

This may seem silly, but if it was suppose to be a CD where are the Phones?? Would not the blasts sent some of them out the windows?? And as none of them were ever recovered how could it be a CD?

Maybe Judy is right? May they were dustified?

 

[mortimer]

Desks, chairs, pot plants, carpets, blinds, computers, wire insulation, paper, preinters, photocopiers, and even, unfortunately, even people are all nothing but fuel to a fire.

<dylan avery>Nooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!</dylan avery>

 

[Dave_46]

<snip>
The one I was reading was for producing a Fire Risk Assessment for Small And Medium Places Of Entertainment.

<snip>

Oops.

Just a minor correction, but best to get it right. The guide was for Fire Risk Assessments in Small And Medium Places Of Assembly.

Carry on.

Dave

 

[BillyRayValentine]

Vast amounts of fuel from what?

Good grief, friend. About a million tons of compressed, burning debris comes to mind. I can only assume you never saw the wtc in person - the towers were massive.

The acrid stench released by the pile enveloped my neighborhood for the better part of a month after the collapses. It was worse in the evening - lingered when the breeze died down.

 

[BigAl]

The color is an indication of temperature.
I can't post a URL yet, reassemble this one.

www westyorkssteel com images htchar1.gif

I can't prove it to you right now, but it came
from an industry article on aluminum. This is standard stuff in any metalworking text.

 

[BigAl]

The black smoke is irrelevant since the unedited video of each tower collapse shows massive red flames on several floors right up to the time of the collapse.

 

[apathoid]

Thanks a lot for that. Yeah I remembered hearing about black smoke being a sign of O2 starvation, but could not recall where.

My guess would be a conspiracy site. That's because you won't find any other site that wrongly explains that black smoke is indicative of an oxygen starved fire. You see, conspiracy sites very often make stuff up because the actual facts don't fit their theories. Crazy huh?

 

[kookbreaker]

I'm always curious as to why the CTers think that 'Oxygen starved' means that the fire is almost out? Isn't one of the major hazards in fireifhgting the posibility that a room on fire has consumed all of its oxygen but still maintains its heat...then someone opens a door and *boom*.

Firefighters don't smother fires, they extinguish them.

 

[Apollo20]

Revolutionary91:

I may be wrong on this but I believe NIST only mentions that the fires were "oxygen-starved" in reference to the first few minutes of the burning of the aviation fuel.

Indeed, NIST show that the air on a single floor was only sufficient to burn 365 gallons of Jet A fuel and conclude that the maximum amount of fuel that could have burned "immediately" within the building (WTC 1) was about 1,460 gallons

See NCSTAR 1-5A, page 81:

"These observations are consistent with the conclusion that internal fires were effectively damped down by oxygen depletion"

Nevertheless, with time, the fires spread over large areas above the impact zones and were probably NOT oxygen starved.

 

[BigAl]

Diesel fuel from generators, carpet, curtains, paper, computers, wiring insulation, desks, chairs, ceiling tiles, food and cooking oil in shops and restaurants and, lastly and sadly, people. There's probably other stuff that I missed.

Add the Kinetic energy of 500,000 tons falling as much as 1100 ft. A back of the envelope calculation shows it heated up the pile to an amount equal to hundreds of tons of TNT.

If you briskly bend a big nail it gets hot. The same thing happened at WTC on a massive scale.

 

[Alareth]

Firefighters don't smother fires, they extinguish them.

Firefighters interrupt the fire triangle, smothering is an effective tool depending on the circumstances.