• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Any Anarchist in the forum?

Certainly a skeptic can question whether governments are the best form of...government. Many have. Most have concluded that some sort of democratically-elected government is preferrable to an anarchy. That doesn't mean that anarchy might not be the best way for us to organize ourselves, just that a convincing case has not yet been made for it.
 
Now, tell me what's wrong in believing that a society can be organized in a way that allows a "star" football player and an average scientist to have the same standard of life?
Ooh! Ooh! I know this one! Pick me! Pick me!

Because you are believing something entirely without evidence, or, so far as I can tell, reason. In short, you are not being skeptical.

I'll happy admit the possibility of better governmental organizations than we have; asserting they exists requires evidence. Picking a specific alternative, absent evidence, is not skeptical.
 
Any examples of an anarchist society that doesn't end up like Somalia yet?

I really don't see a sharp line between anarchy and government, to be honest. After all, a government is really just a self-defense agency that "provides its services" to people automatically (by virtue of living within a certain area) and imposes various penalties to people who decline to pay their dues. To oversimplify to the point of absurdity, all a government has to do to become an anarchy is to simply take off its government hat and call itself an anarchy and you have yourself a functioning anarchy! Of course, this is not exactly what people mean when they talk about anarchy, but ultimately it's just a question of how social power is to be organized, with anarchy describing one end of the spectrum, and its really an arbitrary convention as to how far people are willing to stretch the word. Saying that no anarchist society has worked is like saying no "small" government has worked. It's relative.

It does seem that my personal definition of "society" might be not how anyone else uses the word, so I'll put aside that point, though.
 
Last edited:
Just like black is pretty much very dark gray, and very dark gray is pretty much dark gray, and .... and off white is pretty much white, so black is white.

edit: From Encyclopedia Britannica, 1910:
ANARCHISM (from the Gr. αν, and αρχο, contrary to authority), the name given to a principle or theory of life and conduct under which society is conceived without government - harmony in such a society being obtained, not by submission to law, or by obedience to any authority, but by free agreements concluded between the various groups, territorial and professional, freely constituted for the sake of production and consumption, as also for the satisfaction of the infinite variety of needs and aspirations of a civilized being.
Society without government vs society with government, society without law vs society with law, society without authority vs society with authority. It doesn't get too much different, or 'sharper' than that, IMO.
 
Last edited:
Actually, you didn't: compare post #18 against #29 (wherein the hippie commune comment can first be found). Anyway, I'm pretty sure most of these tribes were in the 50-150 range, which is between 4 and more than 10 times your number.
Holy crap, I see that some mild hyperbole is beyond you. What difference does it make if it's 150 people? There are 300 million people in the US alone. Tell you what, I'll be all for anarchy when the US population drops to 150. :rolleyes:

Somalia is an example of anarcho-capitalism and, for some, one of the closer approximations to Libertopia. Anarchism in the traditional understanding involves eliminating hierarchies, balancing power. If we were to look at human beings 10,000 years ago, we'd probably say they are irredeemably egalitarian, whereas now ninety-nine point blah blah blah blah of blah blah blah cannot fathom the notion. Anarchist thinkers vary considerably in how they want to organize their own affairs, which is no great surprise given the value placed on freedom. Self-described anarchists are not obligated to support, let alone live in, anarcho-capitalist or anarcho-primitivist societies.
It's almost as if you think rationalization is an Olympic sport, and you're going for the gold! And I sense you're going for the big old No True Scotsman fallacy also, kind of how Communists dismiss every failed Communist state as not being true Communism.

No way, no how does any flavor of anarchy in the modern world not result in a Somalia-type situation.
 
Well if we're just going to define anarchy any way we like what's the point?

The world is not a single society.

Anarchy is constantly defined in different ways. I believe this is so because, as most political ideas, its complexities and subtleties are vast. One can always stretch them (political ideas) and attempt to use them to describe some ideas.

In my case, I understand it as "an attempt to organize a society in a way that it doesn't need a centralized authority". I used the whole planet as an example because (I believe) it proofs that we all live in a permanent state of anarchy. The human society, taken as a whole, lacks a centralized authority. There are hundreds of government with their own interests, thousands of big transnational enterprises with deep pockets and particular interests, and the rest of the humanity in the middle. Almost no one speak for the people. Not some countrie's people. Just... the people.

Now, someone will point out that the world does not work (waste of natural resources, good food trashed because its cheaper to do it than to sell it below some price, overpopulation, pollution, wars for almost any reason you can think.. etc) and I agree. The world is in chaos, the management of natural and human resources is precarious, and depends almost entirely on the momentary interests of those governments and companies.

I do believe a higher order is needed, but not in the form of a unified world government (some believe we are heading in to that direction). I would rather have a world ruled by teams of scientists. All the gathering and use of resources would go towards the goal of keeping humanity alive and well. Key concepts should change before anything like this becomes even possible, for example, I believe that the very concept of "property" should be revised.

Remember, it is my personal utopia, I do not believe the world will change and accept it, not even any of you. ;) But this is a forum to share ideas, even when they are just little fuffy clouds in the mind of an individual. At least, this is what I believe.
 
Last edited:
Certainly a skeptic can question whether governments are the best form of...government. Many have. Most have concluded that some sort of democratically-elected government is preferrable to an anarchy. That doesn't mean that anarchy might not be the best way for us to organize ourselves, just that a convincing case has not yet been made for it.

Read my previous post, maybe anarchy is not the right word, but I do not mean "lack of any authority" with it, just lack of a central authority. Think for example, and I have repeated this in the thread, the age of kings. A King was an ultimate ruler, for all its life.

Those times are gone, we have moved towards a form of government in which powers are shared so, in a way, we are more anarchists nowadays.
 
Last edited:
It's almost as if you think rationalization is an Olympic sport, and you're going for the gold! And I sense you're going for the big old No True Scotsman fallacy also, kind of how Communists dismiss every failed Communist state as not being true Communism.

I should write a post on the No True Scotsman fallacy, and probably send copies to Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the U.N. for all of the abuse it has taken on this forum alone. I doubt you have the slightest clue what the this fallacy entails; indeed, I "get the sense" that you, like others here, resort to such terminology to imbue vaguely desperate arguments with some higher authority.

From Wikipedia, quoting Anthony Flew: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the "Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again." Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing." The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true Scotsman would do such a thing."

Crucially the No True Scotsman fallacy involves an after the fact change in positions. Let me see if I can find an example from recent memory, hmmmmm... well, it's sort of like asking if there are any examples of an anarchist society that did not "end up like Somalia," receiving an indisputable answer, and then stipulating new conditions.

Holy crap, I see that some mild hyperbole is beyond you. What difference does it make if it's 150 people? There are 300 million people in the US alone. Tell you what, I'll be all for anarchy when the US population drops to 150. :rolleyes:

It's not unheard of for human beings to respond to low-rent hyperbole with deadpan knowingness.
 
Anarchy is constantly defined in different ways. I believe this is so because, as most political ideas, its complexities and subtleties are vast. One can always stretch them (political ideas) and attempt to use them to describe some ideas.
A slippery thing, that anarchy definition.

In my case, I understand it as "an attempt to organize a society in a way that it doesn't need a centralized authority". I used the whole planet as an example because (I believe) it proofs that we all live in a permanent state of anarchy.
And the millions who die because of wars and oppression each year argue against that as a desireable state on any level, don't you think?

The human society, taken as a whole, lacks a centralized authority. There are hundreds of government with their own interests, thousands of big transnational enterprises with deep pockets and particular interests, and the rest of the humanity in the middle. Almost no one speak for the people. Not some countrie's people. Just... the people.
Right, now you sound like every Marxist revolutionary ever who spoke for "the people", who somehow managed to kill millions of people in the process. Like Che Guevara, who sometimes had to slaughter whole villages of civilians for "the people" and is now a counter-culture icon.

Now, someone will point out that the world does not work (waste of natural resources, good food trashed because its cheaper to do it than to sell it below some price, overpopulation, pollution, wars for almost any reason you can think.. etc) and I agree. The world is in chaos, the management of natural and human resources is precarious, and depends almost entirely on the momentary interests of those governments and companies.
Natural resources tend to be better off when it is the government and businesses managing them. When "the people" manage them is when the wholesale rape of them occurs, see the Congo charcoal trade for Exhibit A. Much the same happening in the Amazon rain forest.

I do believe a higher order is needed, but not in the form of a unified world government (some believe we are heading in to that direction). I would rather have a world ruled by teams of scientists. All the gathering and use of resources would go towards the goal of keeping humanity alive and well. Key concepts should change before anything like this becomes even possible, for example, I believe that the very concept of "property" should be revised.
"Ruled" by scientists? Sorry, I don't want my own country, let alone the world, ruled by anyone. Scientists sure as hell aren't immune from committing atrocities in the name of science, think Nazi doctos and the experiments Japanes scientists did to POWs in WWII. No thanks, I'll take elected officials accountable to the people and limited in their power.

I should write a post on the No True Scotsman fallacy, and probably send copies to Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the U.N. for all of the abuse it has taken on this forum alone. I doubt you have the slightest clue what the this fallacy entails; indeed, I "get the sense" that you, like others here, resort to such terminology to imbue vaguely desperate arguments with some higher authority.
I know exactly what it entails. You keep ignoring Somalia, because taht's not the 'true" anarchy utopia you and your professor envision, nor will any other reeal-world examp0le fit the bill. it will always be some mythical form of anarchy that has never existed and will never exist, because there is no such viable animal.

Crucially the No True Scotsman fallacy involves an after the fact change in positions. Let me see if I can find an example from recent memory, hmmmmm... well, it's sort of like asking if there are any examples of an anarchist society that did not "end up like Somalia," receiving an indisputable answer, and then stipulating new conditions.
I never said you actually committed a NTS fallacy, I said you were going there. You will arrive there if and when you actually take a position. but like a 9/11 truther who makes no actual claims because then the claims can be easily refuted, you probably won't ever define any sort of anarch you prefer because as soon as you do it will be obvious to all observers that your version of anarchy leads to the same place - another Somalia.

It's not unheard of for human beings to respond to low-rent hyperbole with deadpan knowingness.
What's unheard of is any sort of anarchy actually working in the world as we have it today. It ends up like Somalia.

Fact is, most anarchists are spoiled brat only children who were used to getting their way if they only threw a long enough temper tantrum, and try to apply that strategy to the real world once they enter into it. See the window-smashing anarchists at the RNC for examples. "Wahhhh, waaaahhh, waahhhh, I want it my way or I'll break your windows, waaah, waaahhh..."

Just my opinion, of course.
 
Last edited:
Fact is, most anarchists are spoiled brat only children who were used to getting their way if they only threw a long enough temper tantrum, and try to apply that strategy to the real world once they enter into it. See the window-smashing anarchists at the RNC for examples. "Wahhhh, waaaahhh, waahhhh, I want it my way or I'll break your windows, waaah, waaahhh..."

And those who are not are generally college professors with safe tenures who can mouth any kooky but appealing theory they want in the safe knowledge they will never have to test it outside the classroom to see if it really works.
 
A slippery thing, that anarchy definition.

The same goes for the concise definition of any political ideology, if we want to be precise.

Right, now you sound like every Marxist revolutionary ever who spoke for "the people", who somehow managed to kill millions of people in the process. Like Che Guevara, who sometimes had to slaughter whole villages of civilians for "the people" and is now a counter-culture icon.

Not at all. My approach would be biological based instead of ideological. Food, health services and education for everyone, for a start.

Natural resources tend to be better off when it is the government and businesses managing them. When "the people" manage them is when the wholesale rape of them occurs, see the Congo charcoal trade for Exhibit A. Much the same happening in the Amazon rain forest.

Every consumption of things WE CONSIDER to be "resources" is based on several premises; At least 1) That you will get something out of it, 2) that it is valuable for someone. Get those things out of the equation and suddenly there is no need to erase forests, kill gorillas or sell drugs.

"Ruled" by scientists? Sorry, I don't want my own country, let alone the world, ruled by anyone. Scientists sure as hell aren't immune from committing atrocities in the name of science, think Nazi doctos and the experiments Japanes scientists did to POWs in WWII. No thanks, I'll take elected officials accountable to the people and limited in their power.

Those were military experiments.

I know exactly what it entails. You keep ignoring Somalia, because taht's not the 'true" anarchy utopia you and your professor envision, nor will any other reeal-world examp0le fit the bill. it will always be some mythical form of anarchy that has never existed and will never exist, because there is no such viable animal.

How do you know? Have you read what I mean by "anarchy"? Lack of centralized authority does not imply lack of ANY authority. It doesn't imply the collapse of a government but its organized evolution in to something different.

Hey, this WILL HAPPEN, in someway or the other current governments will change and evolve. To which kind of government? we don't know, but I sure want that it changes for the better taking in to account more people. It is a waste of resources when you have a society producing enough food for the entire population and then having to trash half of it because its price is "not right" and this means half your population is going to starve. Note that this has nothing to be with morals, it is simply logic and efficiency of a system.

So let's go back to what I want to mean by anarchism, take out a king and you have a minister or a president. This is where we are now. I believe the next natural step is to take this individuals out and you have a group of people. Now make every people in a society to actively participate as the government for a period of time. Then change the beliefs about key concepts (like what is "a property", or the "need" to have something in retribution for another thing) and there you go.
 
Last edited:
@ Wildcat: I have just read the Wiki article on Somalia. In what sense is this an anarchy ?
 
I know exactly what it entails. You keep ignoring Somalia, because taht's not the 'true" anarchy utopia you and your professor envision, nor will any other reeal-world examp0le fit the bill. it will always be some mythical form of anarchy that has never existed and will never exist, because there is no such viable animal.

Ignoring Somalia? I was addressing your claim before you revised it. The people who need to make amends with Somalia are your funnier looking cousins on the political right: libertarians. They actually talked it up in the late 90s, and I recall not too long ago having an argument with a philosophy grad student, he claiming there were "billions of examples" of anarcho-capitalism. That week Mogideshu fell to Islamists (supported by local businesses).

I never said you actually committed a NTS fallacy, I said you were going there.

And I never said you did, hence my mocking "I get the sense..."

You will arrive there if and when you actually take a position. but like a 9/11 truther who makes no actual claims because then the claims can be easily refuted, you probably won't ever define any sort of anarch you prefer because as soon as you do it will be obvious to all observers that your version of anarchy leads to the same place - another Somalia.

What's unheard of is any sort of anarchy actually working in the world as we have it today. It ends up like Somalia.

Fact is, most anarchists are spoiled brat only children who were used to getting their way if they only threw a long enough temper tantrum, and try to apply that strategy to the real world once they enter into it. See the window-smashing anarchists at the RNC for examples. "Wahhhh, waaaahhh, waahhhh, I want it my way or I'll break your windows, waaah, waaahhh..."

Just my opinion, of course.

And not a very well-informed one. You're reduced to vague associations: Ready, fire, aim.

As I've mentioned before, I teach political science. On the very first day students are thrust into groups and asked to define government and answer whether or not it's necessary. Invariably they answer that it is, but the anarchist critique is valuable because it awakens us to things we take for granted, and impresses upon us the idea that power is not self-justifying.
 
@ Wildcat: I have just read the Wiki article on Somalia. In what sense is this an anarchy ?
A complete failure of the central government. You had about 6 seconds of true anarchy in Somalia, then it became warlord fighting warlord carving out territory.

Anarchists seem to think that a power vacuum can exist indefinitely, and then they can do what they want and there won't be anybody to tell them what to do.

This never works out in practice, because that vacuum will be filled and it won't be filled by friendly peaceful people concerned about your well-being.
 
As I've mentioned before, I teach political science. On the very first day students are thrust into groups and asked to define government and answer whether or not it's necessary. Invariably they answer that it is, but the anarchist critique is valuable because it awakens us to things we take for granted, and impresses upon us the idea that power is not self-justifying.

Exactly my feelings. Questioning established organizations like the government makes us wonder if we can improve them, change them, create new forms of it, etc. Yet, we simply take things for granted, like that we need to use money to buy things, or that we can own stuff (example, that we can own the land),

We blindly believe that there are countries (that they are as tangible and real as a sunset), we are immerse in a culture that teach us that there is something called patriotism, that in the world it is always "us against them", that there are classes, that some jobs deserve to earn more money than others (a football player can earn millions while a scientist looking for a cure for AIDS can make 50k a year).

All those are simply conventions, nothing more than conventions... yet people silently embrace them as some kind of "word of god", people even (and often) die protecting them as if they were (and should be) immutable.

And I believe all this is simply a load of crap. Sure, we need organization, but why not think in a more efficient one? Why do we blindly need to follow what it is currently established? We can set an experimental society on an island to try some new models of organization, something like Biosphere 2. And no, I'm not taking about a 60s communist commune, I'm talking about we should use every piece of technology available, it would be advisable to design it around the ecosystem and our animal nature, zoologists, engineers, physicists, geologists, biologists, critical thinkers, etc would need to apply (woos not allowed).
 
A complete failure of the central government. You had about 6 seconds of true anarchy in Somalia, then it became warlord fighting warlord carving out territory.

Anarchists seem to think that a power vacuum can exist indefinitely, and then they can do what they want and there won't be anybody to tell them what to do.

This never works out in practice, because that vacuum will be filled and it won't be filled by friendly peaceful people concerned about your well-being.


Er....the collapse of central government through civil war is not really an attempt at anarchy of any sort, IMO. Judging from the article there is no consensus about where Somalia actually is, or even if it is. I wonder what would happen if some outside or imposed puppet power suddenly decided that Canada America and Mexico were all one country and set up one government to rule them?
 
Er....the collapse of central government through civil war is not really an attempt at anarchy of any sort, IMO. Judging from the article there is no consensus about where Somalia actually is, or even if it is. I wonder what would happen if some outside or imposed puppet power suddenly decided that Canada America and Mexico were all one country and set up one government to rule them?
Your scenario happens all the time, look at Great Britain for example. Hell, just about any country used to be many smaller ones.

The question is: Is there any case of anarchy that is viable?
 
It happens and it does not happen: but what is certainly true is that it cannot be imposed quickly and it cannot be imposed without war. What has that to do with anarchy?
 
Er no.....you mentioned Somalia in connection with anarchy Wildcat. So what has it to with anarchy?
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom