ANTI-WAR OR ANTI-U.S.?

[Tony]

I think there is a big difference between this attitude and that shown by other Americans on this forum, such as Tricky, Headscrather etc.

What attitude? Do you deny the fact that america doesnt have the most power and influence? Why dont you answer the question?

So why should we lower ourselves to thier level? Because its the "moral" thing to do?

 

[VernorsRush]

One COULD think that, but they would be wrong. Military intervention was successful in promoting democracy in Japan and Germany after ww2.

Don't you think that had more to do with the generous and dignified reconstruction plans developed by Marshall and MacArthur? What will define the success or failure of this campaign for history will be what happens in Iraq after Bush declares a military victory.

 

[Guest]

ANTI ASSASINS

Anti-nazis, etc.

 

[Tony]

Don't you think that had more to do with the generous and dignified reconstruction plans developed by Marshall and MacArthur? What will define the success or failure of this campaign for history will be what happens in Iraq after Bush declares a military victory.

I stand somewhat corrected . Yes, you are right, it was the marshall and macauthur plans that helped Japan and Germany achieve a democratic government after the war. But military intervention had to happen before those plans could be implemented.

 

[a_unique_person]

I stand somewhat corrected . Yes, you are right, it was the marshall and macauthur plans that helped Japan and Germany achieve a democratic government after the war. But military intervention had to happen before those plans could be implemented.

Japans version of Democracy is quite interesting.

The country has been run, since the parliament was set up by McArthur, by one party only.

This is the Liberal Democratic Party. What is unusual about this institution is that it is neither, Liberal, nor Democratic, nor a Party.

 

[Tony]

Japans version of Democracy is quite interesting.

The country has been run, since the parliament was set up by McArthur, by one party only.

This is the Liberal Democratic Party. What is unusual about this institution is that it is neither, Liberal, nor Democratic, nor a Party.

That is interesting, are you sure Japan has a democracy? or do they have some other form of government? I remember you were the guy that tried to argue that the US is a democracy.

 

[a_unique_person]

That is interesting, are you sure Japan has a democracy? or do they have some other form of government? I remember you were the guy that tried to argue that the US is a democracy.

The people get to vote every so often. Only they have never voted out the LDP.

The LDP itself appears to be a democracy within a democracy. it is divided up into factions and leaders, trading favours and loyalty. A big breakthrough was supposed to have been achieved when the new PM was elected. He was supposed to be a new broom, clearing out the accumulated years of internal corruption and patronage. He appears, however, to have run into a brick wall.

And, by my definition, the US is a democracy. No democracy in the world has the 'mob rule' that the framers of the US constitution were so afraid of. All modern democracies have the 'checks and balances' built into their systems to ensure that there is stability as well as change.

The US is just one more democracy that has ensured that there are controls in place. The distinction of it being a 'constitutionally limited republic' appears to be one that only the US sees, serving to help further the myth that the US is somehow 'special' and the
'best'.

As far as I can tell, the rest of the world regards the US as just another democracy, with it's own problems to deal with in working as a democracy. For example, you can't run for president unless you are a wealthy man, voter participation is falling, the requirement that you have to register to vote discourages participation, etc.

 

[Bjorn]

That is interesting, are you sure Japan has a democracy? or do they have some other form of government? I remember you were the guy that tried to argue that the US is a democracy.

This has been discussed on several threads - in general I think it was shown that US is or isn't a democracy in just the same way as most European countries. There's not much of a difference.

 

[DavidJames]

"So why should we lower ourselves to thier level? Because its the "moral" thing to do? Spare me your ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊."

This is phrase to which I was specifically responding. The fact that the U.S. is more powerful and influential is clear, the belief that we are "lowering" ourselves if we deal with our world neighbors as equals is arrogant. You disagree, fine. My experience has been that influence can better be gained through helping others understand the value they will derive from your ideas rather than "bullying" them. Perhaps your experience is different.

 

[Tony]

The people get to vote every so often. Only they have never voted out the LDP.

The LDP itself appears to be a democracy within a democracy. it is divided up into factions and leaders, trading favours and loyalty. A big breakthrough was supposed to have been achieved when the new PM was elected. He was supposed to be a new broom, clearing out the accumulated years of internal corruption and patronage. He appears, however, to have run into a brick wall.

That is interesting. Does it have an adverse effect on the country?

And, by my definition, the US is a democracy.

And by my definition a dog is a cat, but that doesnt make it so.


The US is just one more democracy that has ensured that there are controls in place. The distinction of it being a 'constitutionally limited republic' appears to be one that only the US sees, serving to help further the myth that the US is somehow 'special' and the
'best'.

Paranoid?


As far as I can tell, the rest of the world regards the US as just another democracy

The rest of the world is wrong. The US is a Republic.

voter participation is falling,

Voter participation flucuates with time. Its no big deal.

 

[Bjorn]

That is interesting.

And, by my definition, the US is a democracy.

And by my definition a dog is a cat, but that doesnt make it so.


The US is just one more democracy that has ensured that there are controls in place. The distinction of it being a 'constitutionally limited republic' appears to be one that only the US sees, serving to help further the myth that the US is somehow 'special' and the
'best'.

Paranoid?


As far as I can tell, the rest of the world regards the US as just another democracy

The rest of the world is wrong. The US is a Republic.

voter participation is falling,

Voter participation flucuates with time. Its no big deal.

Tony, it might be good if you explain what is so different between the (constitutions of) the Republic of the US and the Democracies in Europe.

Earlier threads have shown that the systems are very compareable.

 

[Tony]

Tony, it might be good if you explain what is so different between the (constitutions of) the Republic of the US and the Democracies in Europe.

Earlier threads have shown that the systems are very compareable.

Are european countries really democracies?

I dont know much about european governments, but I would assume most of them have a parliament or congress where the population elects representatives to represent them in parliament. If this is true, that would make them republics. Republic of France

 

[Bjorn]

Are european countries really democracies?

I dont know much about european governments, but I would assume most of them have a parliament or congress where the population elects representatives to represent them in parliament. If this is true, that would make them republics. Republic of France

You got that right, and by your definition we don't have any/many democracies in the world. I myself see no reason to define a republic as a non-democracy. Democracy means, as far as I recall, that the people rule.

If you argue that the US is not a democracy, would you also argue that the US is not a democratic country? How can we claim to export democracy (e.g. to Iraq) if we're not democratic ourselves?

 

[a_unique_person]

Are european countries really democracies?

I dont know much about european governments, but I would assume most of them have a parliament or congress where the population elects representatives to represent them in parliament. If this is true, that would make them republics. Republic of France

Note quite, many of them are still monarchies. These are nominally head of state, but really only have a ceremonial role. Kind of like the Irish President, who has a similar position. The Irish President and American President are two completely different roles.

 

[Tony]

You got that right, and by your definition we don't have any/many democracies in the world. I myself see no reason to define a republic as a non-democracy. Democracy means, as far as I recall, that the people rule.

If you argue that the US is not a democracy, would you also argue that the US is not a democratic country? How can we claim to export democracy (e.g. to Iraq) if we're not democratic ourselves?

A fact which I lament, is that the word "democracy" has become a generic term for representative or elected government. So when we say we are going to bring "democracy" to Iraq, we mean we are going to bring representative government.

 

[Tony]

Note quite, many of them are still monarchies. These are nominally head of state, but really only have a ceremonial role. Kind of like the Irish President, who has a similar position. The Irish President and American President are two completely different roles.

I know that is how it is in England. Which other countries still have a monarch?

 

[Bjorn]

A fact which I lament, is that the word "democracy" has become a generic term for representative or elected government. So when we say we are going to bring "democracy" to Iraq, we mean we are going to bring representative government.

That's how the word is used, like it or not.

I've never understood the American need to emphasize that 'we are not a democracy' - unless there is some negative interpretation of 'democracy' compared to 'republic', or if one really thinks that the European way of ruling countries are very different from the American?

 

[armageddonman]

I know that is how it is in England. Which other countries still have a monarch?

The Netherlands, Belgium, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Luxemburg, Liechtenstein, Monaco, The Vatican, Spain

I think that's all of them.

 

[Bjorn]

The Netherlands, Belgium, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Luxemburg, Liechtenstein, Monaco, The Vatican, Spain

I think that's all of them.

And as far as I know, if the royal families went on a perpetual holiday in the Seychelles and just stayed there forever, not a single thing would change in those countries except for the tabloids (fewer scandals). Politically, real life, they have no influence.

 

[a_unique_person]

That's how the word is used, like it or not.

I've never understood the American need to emphasize that 'we are not a democracy' - unless there is some negative interpretation of 'democracy' compared to 'republic', or if one really thinks that the European way of ruling countries are very different from the American?

As I said before, my theory is that they have to make out that they are better. When the US constitution was drawn up, that may have been the case. The Australian constitution was modelled on it, for example, (even though Australia is still a Monarchy!).

I think everyone has learned a lot over the past few hundred years, and they are all pretty equal now.

Not that any of them is perfect.